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Post by Inigo Montoya on Apr 12, 2013 11:34:33 GMT -5
This thread will give us an opportunity to discuss some of the stuff that A$$Y opened up with his post in the Ask a Wheeler thread...
First off, ASSY, that piece of writing was some of the most honest and touching stuff I've read here. Good job. The I'm not a goblin thing made me laugh while it also made me very sad. I am so sorry that anyone has ever made you feel that way. And I can totally understand. For a while, my theme song was "Dirty Little Secret" because the guys I had met here made me feel that way. I think it completely sucks that we do that to each other. Particularly, the first guy I talked to here wouldn't let me send him a card because he didn't want to explain how he'd met me (he had little hand function) so I scanned it and emailed it. Because I was a secret to him... not worthy of mentioning to the people in his daily life. It is huge suckage.
I'll be honest too, the unwillingness of some devs to allow wheelers into their life, whether on line or in real life, baffles me. It especially baffles me when those very devs are actively seeking a disabled partner. And I've known more than one person like that. I'm not criticizing but I genuinely don't understand it.
I have 253 friends on FB. Twenty-one of them are male wheelers/dis. Two of those are not wheelers I met here. I considered counting up my woo woo friends, my high school friends, my lesbian friends and my family but didn't want to bother. Until just recently, my friends list was open for everyone to look at. At times, I have interacted a lot with some of those wheelers. There's at least one that I interact with daily. Not a single soul has asked me about the "excessive" number of disabled men on my page. None of my creepers care that much.
I don't live in a particularly sexually open society, either. I'm in the Southeastern United States. An area not known for it's social openness. I am not pushing for people to be more open than they are... just saying that I don't understand it.
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Post by Inigo Montoya on Apr 12, 2013 11:40:25 GMT -5
I have noticed, though, as an observer of my own life. Little jolts when things happen that I don't expect and that let me know that I'm more ableist or secretive than I'd like to be. For example, my friend who is into CrossFit shared some pictures and an article on my page of a guy who is a former Paralympian and who works out at a Box in Canada. I was amused at my internal and external reaction. But then, I don't share the pics of the Kilted Hottie of the Day on my page either.
I wish, though, that my response to her had been... "Hot dude!"
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Post by Emma on Apr 12, 2013 20:13:16 GMT -5
In the interest if not bogging down the other thread here is my response to Alf's comment - I know it probably will interrupt this thread but i figured moving it here was better than heeping it in Ask a wheeler. I haven't read this thread yet but I'm sure I'll add to it as well. I think the fear of associating with wheelers publicly, like on Facebook or any other place where they can be seen, is the same sort of fear that is behind the fact that people are not ready to accept disabled people as what they are, namely people. There is still a great deal of ‘ableism’ no matter where we look, and apparently also amongst those who say they admire us. I really don't think that's fair. Agreed. Thank you Nas for articulating it well (see her response in the Ask a Wheeler thread). I'm not sure everyone realizes you can make your friends on FB private. Until I realized that was a feature on FB I as a somewhat open dev who is also married to a disabled guy was hesitant to add both disabled guys and other devs who may in turn have a lot of disabled friends to my FB. I didn't need people like my Mother (who doesn't know I'm a dev) searching all my friends and coming up with questions about all the disabled people who are neither skiers or ex military on my friends list. |
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Post by annabelle on Apr 12, 2013 20:43:38 GMT -5
I've told every man I've ever been in a relationship that I am a dev. Maybe I'm just lucky, but every single one of them has been super understanding. The disabled guys I've chatted with or gone out with all knew beforehand that I was a dev, and again, all really glad about it. To a surprising extent. In my whole life, not one person has given me shit about being a dev.
I kind of love being a dev. I don't feel guilty. I love the fact that my fantasies go beyond the stupid Hollywood stereotype of attractive.
In general, however, I am not "out" as a dev. Most of my friends don't know. I would never tell my parents. I am terrified of people knowing this about me, so I've hidden most of my encounters with disabled men. Believe me, it's not because I'm ashamed of being around disabled men or because I don't see them as people. No way.
So why do I do this? Honestly, it's because of WOMEN. I have so many female friends who are really closed minded about sexual stuff, and if they knew the truth about me, I can't even imagine what they'd say to me or behind my back. And look at all the awful things certain uptight women say about us on the internet. I am terrified of being wrongfully called out as a pervert by a bunch of uptight women. I just don't have the strength to deal with that.
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Post by A££Y "Cuddles" Magoo on Apr 12, 2013 20:46:49 GMT -5
I was debating how to respond to Assy's post, have been for most of the day. Assy, you made me cry. That's not a bad thing, either. The "I'm not a goblin" thing... wow. I have been reading Bill Peace lately. The Amanda Baggs story is unfolding right near my home town, and it makes me sad to be a human. Reading her blog is heart-wrenching. Bill Peace is an activist, and he gets some flak for it. But I have done more soul-searching as a result of his posts in the past few weeks than I have since I started to come to terms with being a dev. Silence. It's such a huge issue. I have been fearful of being "found out" as a dev. As if anyone were that interested in my life. But when I was younger, it was a big deal. The one person I told was my ex-husband, and he ended up not only shaming me, but using it against me. That was right when I first came to PD, and I ended up deleting my first account because I was afraid he would be able to do damage here. After that, I then met a few guys who made me feel really bad about being a dev. These were guys who hated their own disability, and took that out on the people who were attracted to them. It was not a very affirming time. But I hung in there, mostly. And some very disability-positive guys have made their way here over the years. The biggest part of silence for me was dev-guilt. And I can't honestly say where dev-guilt started, but I do know it has been discussed here many times. I have heard it said, I have said, that I felt bad about being attracted to the thing that makes the guy's life so difficult. Reading Assy's post this morning, and thinking about Bad Cripple's posts at the same time... I felt convicted, for lack of a better term. I felt gut-punched. It occurred to me that for years I had been saying I was bad for liking the bad thing that made a guy's life so bad. And Bill Peace would have a field day with that one... I'm kind of rambling here, but back to the Silence.... For me, my silence was because I didn't want people to know because I felt guilty about my attraction. I did get over that. Even though I had such a strong reaction this morning, it was for my past feelings. I remember so vividly how it felt to be so conflicted, wanting something so much and feeling like a terrible person for wanting it. It took a long time, but I got over it. I "came out" before I started dating, simply because it was easier that way, for me. I didn't want to have to explain my preference at the same time as talking about this great new guy I met. So I came out to those nearest and dearest. It was very anti-climactic. I also was never active behind the scenes here, until I decided to date. I never chatted, I rarely exchanged PM's. I didn't have any PD friends, devs OR wheelers. I was coming out all over the place AS I was developing those friendships, so I never had the facebook concerns. I don't understand it, either. I hear the concerns, but I have never been questioned about my gay friends, or my Mormon friends, or my red-neck friends, or my super-religious friends... I can't think of a single instance where any friend or acquaintance has said, "Hey, I notice a lot of conservative anti-gun legislation stuff on your wall by some of your friends... is there something you'd like to tell me? Are you secretly a Doomsdayer?" It's not happened. I can't imagine it happening with wheelers, either. ON the other hand... I haven't discussed being a dev with my brother. Why? Honestly, we have never discussed either's sexuality or dating preferences. It just hasn't ever come up. He's my facebook friend. He can see pics of my wheeler friends, AND my wheeler husband... He can also see pics of my gay friends, pics I've taken while volunteering for GLAAD, etc... and he's never asked me if I'm gay, either. I DID once have an old high school friend ask me if I was gay, but I had just posted a pic of me making out with a female friend of mine, so that wasn't all that surprising... All of this rambling nonsense to say, I appreciate what Assy has to say about feeling bad for his people. I appreciate Alf's response to both Assy and LadyLiz's original question. And I appreciate Inigo opening it up here, so we can discuss it without derailing the Ask a Wheeler thread. I sincerely hope other guys who have something to say feel free to say it. It doesn't mean we will like what they have to say, but they have been asked, and they should be allowed to answer. I also hope we can discuss the issue of The Silence here. We had a great run with The Stillness, even if it was uncomfortable for many. I'd like to see this discussed from both dev and wheeler perspective with the same level of respect and honesty. It's a post like that(indigo tooo) that really encapsulates why u feel the need to hide, that stuff with your hubby.... I mean wow that's really heartbreaking. It just shows that we're all selfish and human in our own way. And that's ok.  I love devs and am proud of them and thus I want them to be just as proud of themselves. Of course I know that's easier said than done, and if that makes me selfish that's ok because I'm human. However I do humbly apologize for the gut punch.  |
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Post by Inigo Montoya on Apr 12, 2013 20:58:44 GMT -5
Thanks, y'all for continuing the discussion over here.
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Post by A££Y "Cuddles" Magoo on Apr 12, 2013 22:56:49 GMT -5
What about the person who married the AB guy cause her "dev-ness" was so buried at that time and then didn't realize what makes her truly happy till years later? That only a wheeler will do? If I had the perfect relationship (to me) I would scream it from a mountaintop and be proud of my attraction. I also wonder if that would stop any well meaning but perhaps sympathetic thoughts others may have towards our relationship, for them to know how perfect it is for me. (if those sympathy thoughts happen-which I really don't know). I think this is a very personal preference though, most people do not divulge their sexual turn ons to everyone in their life, but imagine if they did? That has happened a lot actually. Devs have come here and stated how they wanted to, or thought they could make it work with their AB hubbies but ultimately failed because that wasn't what they really wanted. I think more people divulge their sexual turn ons then u may realize. Go to fetlife and you'll see what I mean. I still agree with your point however. Perhaps if society were more like fetlife as a whole maybe being a dev wouldn't be viewed as being such a big deal. |
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vancityippy
Full Member
Posts: 209
Gender: Female
Dev Status: Devotee
Relationship Status: Married/Domestic partnership
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Post by vancityippy on Apr 12, 2013 23:10:48 GMT -5
Gaad A$$y, hang in there...one day you'll find a great woman...dev or not... I love what you said... It's exactly how I feel. Yeah, I worry about being a wheeler's sh*t catch...and I also (In a current LDR with a wheeler) have moments where choosing wheelers or being with a wheeler causes me distress... (I had a classmate...who I trusted...go off on me the other day, asking me why I was choosing a hard road for myself, and made very ignorant statements about disability) BUT...Knowing how I feel...about secrecy...I absolutely will not tolerate it...on either end. When I care about someone, they are welcome in to my life...and I expect to be welcomed into theirs. I have friends who are wheelers, but don't know I prefer disabled guys. Each guy I've dated knows. Some friends know, others don't. Family knows. This situation sometimes gets messy... Like my current situation! I have a friend with MS who knows I'm dating a disabled guy (but not that I'm a dev) Aaaand, my classmate, who knows about my preference...but doesn't know that I don't tell everyone...Aaand an old High school friend (who works for an SCI organization) who know's I've dated two wheelers but not that I choose to...All three (coincidentally) invited me to the same event tomorrow night about sex and disability! I don't know if I'm going...But in my mind, I have this anxiety..."what if they meet, and there's a discrepancy in what they say!!!  " This is the type of situation that makes me anxious (similar to the facebook thing) BuuT, my wonderful mom gave me advice recently...My mom called my grandma recently, and mentioned that the guy I'm with is disabled...I said "mum, why did you have to stress grandma out like that?" My mom said... "Sweety,I don't see a point in tip toeing. It's your life. Eat it" A$$y, you and her are exactly right. I am me. I like what I like. I don't have to explain myself to everyone. I'm proud when I tell those I choose to tell. And those who "wonder" or are curious, can wonder in silence...Yes, it makes some people uncomfortable but... whatever |
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Post by A££Y "Cuddles" Magoo on Apr 12, 2013 23:22:52 GMT -5
Gaad A$$y, hang in there...one day you'll find a great woman...dev or not... I love what you said... It's exactly how I feel. Yeah, I worry about being a wheeler's sh*t catch...and I also (In a current LDR with a wheeler) have moments where choosing wheelers or being with a wheeler causes me distress... (I had a classmate...who I trusted...go off on me the other day, asking me why I was choosing a hard road for myself, and made very ignorant statements about disability) BUT...Knowing how I feel...about secrecy...I absolutely will not tolerate it...on either end. I have friends who are wheelers, but don't know I prefer disabled guys. Each guy I've dated knows...some friends know, others don't...family knows... This situation sometimes gets messy... Like my current situation! I have a friend with MS who knows I'm dating a disabled guy (but not that I'm a dev) Aaaand, my classmate, who knows about my preference...but doesn't know that it's a bit on the down-low...Aaand an old High school friend (who works for an SCI organization) who know's I've dated two wheelers but not that I choose to...All three (coincidentally) invited me to the same event tomorrow night about sex and disability! I don't know if I'm going...But in my mind, I have this anxiety..."what if they meet, and there's a discrepancy in what they say!!! This is the type of situation that makes me anxious (similar to the facebook thing) BuuT, my mom gave me advice once...My mom called my grandma recently, and told her that the guy I'm with is disabled...I said "mum, why did you have to stress grandma out like that?" My mom said..."Sweety, it's your life. Eat it" So ya know what? A$$y, you and her are exactly right. I am me. I like what I like. I don't have to explain myself to everyone. And, there's nothing wrong with telling those I choose. And those who "wonder" or are curious, can wonder in silence...Yes, it makes some people uncomfortable but... whatever +1 and really hope your grandma took it okkk  lol |
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Post by MotorcycleCrash on Apr 12, 2013 23:48:04 GMT -5
I've told every man I've ever been in a relationship that I am a dev. Maybe I'm just lucky, but every single one of them has been super understanding. The disabled guys I've chatted with or gone out with all knew beforehand that I was a dev, and again, all really glad about it. To a surprising extent. In my whole life, not one person has given me sh*t about being a dev. I kind of love being a dev. I don't feel guilty. I love the fact that my fantasies go beyond the stupid Hollywood stereotype of attractive. In general, however, I am not "out" as a dev. Most of my friends don't know. I would never tell my parents. I am terrified of people knowing this about me, so I've hidden most of my encounters with disabled men. Believe me, it's not because I'm ashamed of being around disabled men or because I don't see them as people. No way. So why do I do this? Honestly, it's because of WOMEN. I have so many female friends who are really closed minded about sexual stuff, and if they knew the truth about me, I can't even imagine what they'd say to me or behind my back. And look at all the awful things certain uptight women say about us on the internet. I am terrified of being wrongfully called out as a pervert by a bunch of uptight women. I just don't have the strength to deal with that. that sucks, you have to live your life "in the closet". But if you didn't they would all be talking behind your back for sure, people just don't get it because they are closed minded |
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Post by alf on Apr 13, 2013 6:59:02 GMT -5
‘The Secrecy’ – what a great title!
I can’t help thinking about where the need for secrecy stems from and that is why I backed Assy up in the Ask a wheeler-thread. I know that I made some giant leaps from Assy’s original post into a territory that is pretty dangerous. But I felt it was needed to bring it up when we were talking about secrecy.
Like Assy says: “I love devs and am proud of them and thus I want them to be just as proud of themselves.” It is no secret that I am very, very dev-friendly and I support my dev friends against virtually all the attacks they encounter from the disabled community. On the other hand, I am also going to point out some of the flaws I see in my dev friends when those flaws are staring me straight in the face. And the need for secrecy thing is one of those blaringly obvious underlying flaws because it does stem from the embarrassment of associating with wheelers.
The embarrassment that comes with having a thing for disabled people has its roots in an understanding that is very prevalent in all human beings. It is the embarrassment of liking that which is not ‘normal’. Having a thing for those who to others seem weird, different, odd, bizarre, peculiar, abnormal or whatever you want the term to be. We all have a strong urge to fit in so it is only human to not stand out in a crowd and therefore it is also very human not to associate with those who are seen as fundamentally different.
In my reply to Ladyliz I was not saying that the secrecy is the same as saying that disabled are subhuman. What I am saying is that it all stems from the same thought patterns that we as a society has instilled in each other. And those same sorts of patterns are what have kept women suppressed. They are the same patterns that are behind racism, homophobia and all kinds of other fears of ‘that which is different’.
So it may not be fair when I make that leap in reasoning but it is none the less the truth. If we all strive for real equality between people we must embrace our prejudices - both the obvious ones and the more prevalent ones that we are not even able to see ourselves until somebody points them out for us. And I will be the first to admit that I have them too. Even though I strive on a daily basis to get rid of them, they are just there like nasty little hemorrhoids - pains in the butt.
And I didn’t come back to the board to be fair, I came here to state what I believe is true and for us to have some great discussions and for all of us to think a little farther than our own noses.
How many of you out there are afraid to have black (or white) friends on your friend lists because of what people would think?
It’s a simple question; and why is that different from the fear of having disabled friends…??
If you are afraid of associating with disabled people – no matter what the reason is in your head – it is and it always will be a sign of ableism, the act of seeing disabled people as other …or if you want me to make it more clear, subhuman. I know there are many devs both here and other places who are not willing to see it that way and that is cool with me.
I see that some of you are afraid of being found out. I want you to know that I am a great proponent of keeping my sex life private. So I would like to know how many of you have had friends making inferences about your sex life from trawling your FB friend list – in fact, how many have even had friends (who are not crazy to begin with) trawl your friend list for whatever reason? Is it a legitimate fear or is it a perceived fear living in your heads? I don't know, I am really just asking those questions based on my own experience of never having anybody care the least bit about who I associate with - on FB or otherwise.
This brings me back to the embarrassment issue. I don’t accuse anybody here of being bigots. I just think that most of us (including yours truly) fall prey to the norms of society and unfortunately those norms include a great deal of ableism, whether we want it or not. So when I as a disabled person see those who I thought are the closest to me feel embarrassed by associating with me – it hurts! Whether they are doing it to protect a certain side of who they are or they are doing it less thoughtfully, it is the same pain I feel for being the dirty little secret hiding in their closet.
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Post by annabelle on Apr 13, 2013 8:26:49 GMT -5
For me though, it's not about disabled people being different. I had a paraplegic female acquaintance who I didn't give two thoughts about having on my Facebook friends lists or hanging out with. Because I knew I absolutely was not attracted to her and there were no secrets to be discovered there.
I've always been shy about my sexual attractions. Even before I knew I was a dev, I'd run and hide from the able-bodied boys I liked, and not want anyone else to know I liked him. I hated the idea of people talking about me and who I liked. And now, knowing I'd be judged harshly for this attraction makes the whole thing even harder.
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Post by Enid on Apr 13, 2013 8:27:13 GMT -5
I would argue that those comparisons aren't fair. There's a difference between embarrasment and fear. Would you argue that gay people in the closet are embarrassed of their sexuality? Are they homophobic or just terrified of all the homophobia they see around them?
My mum keeps saying ableist things as often as she can while raving about her idea of the perfect son-in-law. Is it my fault that I'm terrified to tell her I'm dating a guy with a disability? I need their economic support and she's already threatened to disown me if my extended family figures out I'm bisexual... that's why you'll never see me at a local pride parade and why I won't hold hands with a girl in my city.
With wheelers, it's more of a number's game. The average person has ZERO disabled friends. Maybe one if we count minor disabilities. Constantly meeting up with guys with disabilities and traveling at length to date them will raise red flags. So we try to keep the numbers down (mostly by not mentioning the chair part). Is it ableist? Maybe. Fear of what people would say? You bet. Embarrassment? Not so sure.
I don't deny there's ableism at play here, I just wonder if is internal or we're just reacting to the external things we see.
Either way, I know that I've hurt people because of that fear. And I'm sorry, I know I'm a coward.
For what's worth... I'm not talking about FB. My friends list there is private. The reason I wouldn't add most wheelers is because it's under my real name and I don't like having internet acquaintances in there.
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Post by Inigo Montoya on Apr 13, 2013 9:36:44 GMT -5
‘The Secrecy’ – what a great title! I can’t help thinking about where the need for secrecy stems from and that is why I backed Assy up in the Ask a wheeler-thread. I know that I made some giant leaps from Assy’s original post into a territory that is pretty dangerous. But I felt it was needed to bring it up when we were talking about secrecy. Like Assy says: “I love devs and am proud of them and thus I want them to be just as proud of themselves.” It is no secret that I am very, very dev-friendly and I support my dev friends against virtually all the attacks they encounter from the disabled community. On the other hand, I am also going to point out some of the flaws I see in my dev friends when those flaws are staring me straight in the face. And the need for secrecy thing is one of those blaringly obvious underlying flaws because it does stem from the embarrassment of associating with wheelers. The embarrassment that comes with having a thing for disabled people has its roots in an understanding that is very prevalent in all human beings. It is the embarrassment of liking that which is not ‘normal’. Having a thing for those who to others seem weird, different, odd, bizarre, peculiar, abnormal or whatever you want the term to be. We all have a strong urge to fit in so it is only human to not stand out in a crowd and therefore it is also very human not to associate with those who are seen as fundamentally different. In my reply to Ladyliz I was not saying that the secrecy is the same as saying that disabled are subhuman. What I am saying is that it all stems from the same thought patterns that we as a society has instilled in each other. And those same sorts of patterns are what have kept women suppressed. They are the same patterns that are behind racism, homophobia and all kinds of other fears of ‘that which is different’. So it may not be fair when I make that leap in reasoning but it is none the less the truth. If we all strive for real equality between people we must embrace our prejudices - both the obvious ones and the more prevalent ones that we are not even able to see ourselves until somebody points them out for us. And I will be the first to admit that I have them too. Even though I strive on a daily basis to get rid of them, they are just there like nasty little hemorrhoids - pains in the butt. And I didn’t come back to the board to be fair, I came here to state what I believe is true and for us to have some great discussions and for all of us to think a little farther than our own noses. How many of you out there are afraid to have black (or white) friends on your friend lists because of what people would think? It’s a simple question; and why is that different from the fear of having disabled friends…?? If you are afraid of associating with disabled people – no matter what the reason is in your head – it is and it always will be a sign of ableism, the act of seeing disabled people as other …or if you want me to make it more clear, subhuman. I know there are many devs both here and other places who are not willing to see it that way and that is cool with me. I see that some of you are afraid of being found out. I want you to know that I am a great proponent of keeping my sex life private. So I would like to know how many of you have had friends making inferences about your sex life from trawling your FB friend list – in fact, how many have even had friends (who are not crazy to begin with) trawl your friend list for whatever reason? Is it a legitimate fear or is it a perceived fear living in your heads? I don't know, I am really just asking those questions based on my own experience of never having anybody care the least bit about who I associate with - on FB or otherwise. This brings me back to the embarrassment issue. I don’t accuse anybody here of being bigots. I just think that most of us (including yours truly) fall prey to the norms of society and unfortunately those norms include a great deal of ableism, whether we want it or not. So when I as a disabled person see those who I thought are the closest to me feel embarrassed by associating with me – it hurts! Whether they are doing it to protect a certain side of who they are or they are doing it less thoughtfully, it is the same pain I feel for being the dirty little secret hiding in their closet. You are very bitter. I will pray for you.  |
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Post by alf on Apr 13, 2013 10:02:13 GMT -5
I would argue that those comparisons aren't fair. There's a difference between embarrasment and fear. Would you argue that gay people in the closet are embarrassed of their sexuality? Are they homophobic or just terrified of all the homophobia they see around them? My mum keeps saying ableist things as often as she can while raving about her idea of the perfect son-in-law. Is it my fault that I'm terrified to tell her I'm dating a guy with a disability? I need their economic support and she's already threatened to disown me if my extended family figures out I'm bisexual... that's why you'll never see me at a local pride parade and why I won't hold hands with a girl in my city. With wheelers, it's more of a number's game. The average person has ZERO disabled friends. Maybe one if we count minor disabilities. Constantly meeting up with guys with disabilities and traveling at length to date them will raise red flags. So we try to keep the numbers down (mostly by not mentioning the chair part). Is it ableist? Maybe. Fear of what people would say? You bet. Embarrassment? Not so sure. I don't deny there's ableism at play here, I just wonder if is internal or we're just reacting to the external things we see. Either way, I know that I've hurt people because of that fear. And I'm sorry, I know I'm a coward. For what's worth... I'm not talking about FB. My friends list there is private. The reason I wouldn't add most wheelers is because it's under my real name and I don't like having internet acquaintances in there. Yes, yes, yes... these are some of the things I am talking about. And I agree to most of what you are saying. We are all caught up in the social stigma that surrounds us, whether we are disabled have a sexuality that falls outside of the norm or we are the victims of racial prejudice. I have no doubt it is extremely difficult for you to have a mum like that on whom you are financially dependent and to whom you have to play ‘the good daughter’ but those things are perfect examples of how difficult it is to let go of those subtle norms that we all live under. Norms that implicitly carries a lot of prejudice towards minorities. |
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I love devs and am proud of them and thus I want them to be just as proud of themselves. Of course I know that's easier said than done, and if that makes me selfish that's ok because I'm human. 
"
lol
