DEVS ONLY: How many Devs exist

[ichbin]

I´ve been wondering...

What are your feelings / assumptions about how many female Devs exist. 

Like, when I'm in the streets or in a room with people and there is a guy in a wheelchair, I immediately assume or have the feeling that a lot of other women are Devs as well.
If I were to stroll along a street with my paraplegic partner, I'd feel, many other women find him attractive (because: how could they not?)

• Is it because I am a Dev and have hidden for so long that I assume there must be so many others (who are feeling that way and hiding)?
• Is it because paraplegic men are just so incredibly sexy to me that I simply can't imagine any woman does NOT feel that way?
• Is it because inside of me I'm afraid that some other woman "takes away" my man?
• Is it because I am so much in contact with you Devs from Paradevo that it feels like almost every woman is a Dev?

I'd be curious what are your feelings / thoughts on this. 

[lisa]

I often hear people saying that there are much more devs than you would normally assume. I don't share that opinion. I think we are very rare. There unfortunately aren't any scientific statistics on the question that I would be aware of (if anybody knows any, please share, I would be over the moon to hear about them!). This could be taken as a first sign that it is at least rare enough that noone ever bothered to figure out the percentage (unlike for example with homosexuality, where there are at least approximate numbers known). There are statistic methods to figure it out without asking directly, as it is done for other questions that might make people uncomfortable.

I've read about one number in a German book on devness (1:1000), unfortunately when I tried to track the source given there, it led nowhere, it seems to have been a faulty citation. So, I wouldn't trust that number too much. I've written a German article on the question of how many devs exist, the number and other thoughts I have on the topic are all in there: kissability.de/wie-viele-amelos-gibt-es-der-versuch-einer-annaeherung-mangels-wissenschaftlicher-evidenz. There I tried to approximate the number of devs by taking into account several numbers that are readily available (for example user numbers of this very board). What complicates the matter further is the fact that devness is not a black-or-white decision. There definitely is a spectrum involved. Some devs are also into ABs, others are only into PWDs, ... the list goes on and it is unclear which features would exactly qualify someone as a dev. This of course can be figured out or at least stated as a basis for further investigation. I'd like to see research about it in the future.

And if you are out and about with an SCI partner, believe me, most people will probably stare for other reasons than him being sexy :P. It's this kind of situation where I like to engage in PDA big time ;-).

[Dani]

I don't think there are that many devs.
Thinking about my circles and the women I interact with regularly, I don't see too many indications that there are other devs. Among my three best friends who know this about me, I am still the only dev. So I guess if you use that calculation on the general population, devs are probably a minority, one out of four.

I do believe, however, that there are many women/people who don't know themselves very well. Many women are still sexually suppressed and not open to be a happy, open, and sexual person who loves herself with all her strange interests. So many women are not very open in their sexuality (that's a whole other discussion). This is also something I see in my friend's circles. I know for sure I'm the only "weirdo" when it comes to sexuality (not so much dev related). Many women may not know what's slumbering inside of them, or they don't want to face it because it's not the normal stuff. It can be very shocking what we may be into as humans/women regarding sexuality.

With that being said, I believe there could be more devs, but it's something people don't spend enough thought on because it seems "strange". If we use the sexual component, many people will never fully embrace or explore their sexual interests because they feel ashamed or weird about it. I believe there may be women who are with disabled men because they are devs, but they are not open about this and would never admit this. They probably also didn't go into the relationship telling their partner they are a dev, and it could be that they simply didn't know consciously or didn't want to admit to themselves that maybe, features of their disabled partner were/are a turn-on. That goes back to the dev dilemma of "liking" features about our PWD partner that caused/causes them grief and hardships.

Being a dev comes with much self-exploration and is often lined with pain, shame, and guilt...more negative feelings than good feelings. So facing these negative emotions head-on and being willing to explore ourselves and come to peace of mind and body and accept ourselves is often a rocky road. If we can love ourselves for who we are and accept ourselves with our different inclinations and interests, there is a chance that maybe more women would be "out" about being devs, but I think that is wishful thinking.

I would hope that at least there are many women who are not devs but are also not shallow and don't see/have any issues being with a disabled partner if the right man would come along. Of course, going back to our pool of compatible PWD partners...it is very small, so I guess I would say, leave the PWD for the devs 

[devogirl]

I think you are projecting. The answer to your list of questions is yes, you are thinking about this all the time and assuming others feel the same. It's normal to want to feel like everyone sees things like yourself, but the evidence suggests the number of devs in the world is very small.

It is true that many women are not honest with themselves and repress their sexual desires. I think that accounts for why there are so many more male than female devs on the internet. But even if we assume an equal number of male and female devs, the total is still small. There are so few dev sites or groups on the internet. Compared to other sexual identities, it's just so tiny. There's no way we are as common as 1:1000. If that were the case, there would be millions of devs worldwide, this message board would have many, many more members, and there would be so many more groups like it. Maybe it's hard to get a sense if you're here posting all the time and it seems active and you never look at other communities. But for example furries are also relatively rare yet there are so many sites for them.

But that's ok! It really doesn't matter if other people feel the same way or not.

[Deleted]

Aug 13, 2022 5:28:35 GMT -5 ichbin said:

(because: how could they not?)

Thiiiiiiis though 😍
Seriously, I hope every man has a woman in their life who thinks this way.

[em]

Hard to tell, on the one hand I agree with the answers above, on the other hand I'm thinking about how rare homosexuality, bisexuality or asexuality used to be, simply because people wouldn't disclose it or wouldn't be honest with themselves; not to mention gender dysphoria, and suddenly because we have the language and awareness and (to some extent) social approval, every other young person seems to identify as non-binary or something else on the spectrum. Maybe people don't have the tools to understand it, it took me a long time to even connect my interest in disability with sexual desire. And many of the devs who are here are join at a later stage in life.

That said, I still think we are a minority and whether or not your partner is in a wheelchair, he's your partner , I'm sure there are others out there who will find him attractive, and that's great, that doesn't mean they will try to steal him or that he would agree to it, so I wouldn't worry

[ayla]

Aug 16, 2022 13:39:55 GMT -5 em said:

suddenly because we have the language and awareness and (to some extent) social approval, every other young person seems to identify as non-binary or something else on the spectrum. Maybe people don't have the tools to understand it, it took me a long time to even connect my interest in disability with sexual desire. And many of the devs who are here are join at a later stage in life.

I think about this a lot. There is a difference between what we feel and what label we put on what we feel. The Youth™️ today seem to want a label for anything that isn’t strictly male or strictly female; when I was younger, being androgynous in appearance or behavior didn’t require one to give up the label of male/female. Similarly, we are all here having identified our devness as something that needs a label. I’m sure there are others out there who are perfectly able to find a PWD attractive but don’t put a special label on it. There are many new sexuality labels under the queer umbrella, but even the invention of “heterosexuality” is very recent.

[ayla]

That said, I do think true devs (aroused by some display of disability) are extremely rare.

[ichbin]

Aug 16, 2022 13:39:55 GMT -5 em said:

 I'm thinking about how rare homosexuality, bisexuality or asexuality used to be, simply because people wouldn't disclose it or wouldn't be honest with themselves; not to mention gender dysphoria, and suddenly because we have the language and awareness and (to some extent) social approval, every other young person seems to identify as non-binary or something else on the spectrum. Maybe people don't have the tools to understand it, it took me a long time to even connect my interest in disability with sexual desire. And many of the devs who are here are join at a later stage in life.

That said, I still think we are a minority and whether or not your partner is in a wheelchair, he's your partner , I'm sure there are others out there who will find him attractive, and that's great, that doesn't mean they will try to steal him or that he would agree to it, so I wouldn't worry

Yes, that's exactly what I am thinking. Just because people don't talk about it, doesn't mean it's not there. 

If I had not found paradevo at age 33, I might still have not talked to anyone about my attraction 10 yrs later. A researcher for the question of how many devs there are, would not know that I exist. 

... And: Of course I won't allow any woman to steal my partner, and as things are right now, I don't think he would agree to it either ... 

[ichbin]

Aug 14, 2022 9:01:18 GMT -5 devogirl said:

I think you are projecting. The answer to your list of questions is yes, you are thinking about this all the time and assuming others feel the same. It's normal to want to feel like everyone sees things like yourself, but the evidence suggests the number of devs in the world is very small.

It is true that many women are not honest with themselves and repress their sexual desires. I think that accounts for why there are so many more male than female devs on the internet. But even if we assume an equal number of male and female devs, the total is still small. There are so few dev sites or groups on the internet. Compared to other sexual identities, it's just so tiny. There's no way we are as common as 1:1000. If that were the case, there would be millions of devs worldwide, this message board would have many, many more members, and there would be so many more groups like it. Maybe it's hard to get a sense if you're here posting all the time and it seems active and you never look at other communities. But for example furries are also relatively rare yet there are so many sites for them.

But that's ok! It really doesn't matter if other people feel the same way or not.

Yes, you're absolutely right, I agree it doesn't matter if other people feel the same way or not. But it matters to me to believe that there are so many more women out there suffering like I did, feeling shame and guilt, loneliness and despair.... because of a thing which actually isn't anything bad at all! 

It would be so interesting how to reach them... 

Also, what you write about male devs... this is also a thing why I believe there must be more female devs... because there are sooo many male devs. I mean, why should there be so much more male than female devs?! 

And, last but not least: I don't know whether being on this platform PD is an indicator for how many Devs really exist...

 I remember I had googled a couple of times (before I found PD) about "wheelchair and sex" or something like that (being afraid somebody would find out😅)... always finding some medical explanations or something... it took many years until very coincidentally I found PD.

[Dani]

Aug 16, 2022 13:59:03 GMT -5 ayla said:

Aug 16, 2022 13:39:55 GMT -5 em said:

I think about this a lot. There is a difference between what we feel and what label we put on what we feel. 

And I have always come back to this label of devotee and I personally don't like it. 
Not because I feel bad about being a devotee but simply because why can't we just accept it as just another attraction. 

[Inkdevil]

I don’t like the term devotee either Dani - and I certainly don’t like the term fetish. Neither of them seem to fit what my attraction is to me. The sexual element is so small as to make it negligible.

Both words sound so needy, off balanced and weird. They don’t sum up what I’ve recently come out of - a perfectly normal relationship with a para guy, but with an extra layer of attraction (and appreciation for that attraction) thrown in.

Just think if I’d somehow ended up in that relationship without discovering I was a dev or finding PD. I’d be out there living the life and very much a dev, just not realising it. I wonder how many others there are in that situation?

Sadly, as so few dev women will admit publically that’s what they are, there will never be a way of counting us in any meaningful way. I would LOVE to know the real numbers though.

[ayla]

Aug 16, 2022 14:34:50 GMT -5 ichbin said:

I don't know that there are that many male devs. There SEEM to be a lot more on the internet but

1. men are more likely to know what they want

2. men are more likely to talk about / seek out what they want rather than keep it as a private fantasy

3. men are more likely to objectify women on the internet, regardless of what kind of women they prefer

4. Finally, I think there are a lot of creepy, predatory men who want to dominate their female partner, or like the idea of a physically weak/delicate/fragile woman, and see disabled women as an extension of that fantasy. These guys call themselves devotees, but in my mind they absolutely are not, they'd be attracted to anyone they perceive as vulnerable. There are far fewer creepy, predatory women that want to dominate a "weak" male partner, and so we don't have as many such "fake" female devs.

There are also true male devs, who seem to have the same triggers and interests as I/we do and none of the ableist "weak woman" bullshit. These guys seem to be the minority (and it really sucks for them). I think there are probably even numbers of male/female devs that fit this definition.

[Dani]

Aug 16, 2022 16:42:22 GMT -5 Inkdevil said:

I don’t like the term devotee either Dani - and I certainly don’t like the term fetish. Neither of them seem to fit what my attraction is to me. The sexual element is so small as to make it negligible.

Both words sound so needy, off balanced and weird. They don’t sum up what I’ve recently come out of - a perfectly normal relationship with a para guy, but with an extra layer of attraction (and appreciation for that attraction) thrown in.

Just think if I’d somehow ended up in that relationship without discovering I was a dev or finding PD. I’d be out there living the life and very much a dev, just not realising it. I wonder how many others there are in that situation?

Sadly, as so few dev women will admit publically that’s what they are, there will never be a way of counting us in any meaningful way. I would LOVE to know the real numbers though.

100 percent agree, I'm on the same page as you are with that.

I never liked the term "fetish" either...it is not a fetish for me. It is an attraction to and deep interest in a specific type of man. To me it's more of a fascination with and curiosity in this man physically and psychologically. 

A fetish to me is much more an object that "gets one off", not a disabled person. I have certain fetishes that get me off and these things include me in certain situations. I have always been able to fulfill these with my AB husband. I guess, a fetish could be a certain situation involving a disabled person, so that is where maybe the fetish part could start but personally, I can't limit my being a devotee to a "fetish", to me it's more than that.  

I know we've discussed this in the past about fetish, attraction, or whatever being a devotee means to each individual and it is different for every devotee. 


 

[em]

Aug 16, 2022 15:36:37 GMT -5 Dani said:

Aug 16, 2022 13:59:03 GMT -5 ayla said:

I think about this a lot. There is a difference between what we feel and what label we put on what we feel. 

And I have always come back to this label of devotee and I personally don't like it. 
Not because I feel bad about being a devotee but simply because why can't we just accept it as just another attraction. 

Sure, I think the point is just that having a label helps you identify more specific feelings, and that's what leads people nowadays to have all these very specific identities, while in the past people didn't do as much soul searching regarding their identity, and did not label things, therefore we wouldn't know of them as belonging to a specific group, labelled as "devotee", or "gender non-conforming" or "asexual". It also leads to less people knowing the specific definitions and the definitions themselves not encompassing wide range of experience. For example, I just came across some online content that included the word "demisexual" - nobody can identify as that though, until they know what it is and that it exists. Similarly, I thought I couldn't be a "devotee" at first because I thought it was only about attraction to amputees.

Sorry for rambling just had this on my mind, on another note I also don't think the word "devotee" is appropriate, it makes me think of religious devotees which is weird! I don't use it in my head I don't think.