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Post by Claire on Feb 12, 2008 8:48:53 GMT -5
Moving this over from the nature/nurture thread so as not to take over that discussion. I considered moving it to the General board, but...well, let me know if you think you'd like wheelers' input on this and I'll do it. I kind of do...and kind of don't. What sucks is that I shouldn't have to feel this guilt, and you shouldn't have to feel like what you've said are appropriate things to say to someone who has BIID. If BIID was a recognized condition, if there were more studies done on it, if doctors and mental health professionals had even heard of it, if there were real treatment protocols, if the general public understood it, and if people with all kinds of disabilities both mental and physical didn't have to fight over resources, this would not even be an issue. It shouldn't be an issue. People like me should have help, and there should be enough to go around, and no one should feel that they have to resent someone else having access to help. Claire, I still have a very hard time with the BIID. It is not that is difficult for me to understand. I just find it somehow repugnant and I am trying not to. It just makes me feel so uncomfortable. Interestingly, there seems to be more acceptance of Gender Indentity Disorder (though not that much more) and I don't know why that is, other than the fact that it has been given a good deal of media attention. Why do I find the BIID harder to swallow, since it is almost the same type of thing - feeling that you were born into the wrong body? Claire, why do people, even devotees have such a hard time with this? |
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Post by Claire on Feb 12, 2008 9:50:09 GMT -5
First of all, THANK YOU AB for your honesty. Although it hurt, I do appreciate your honesty and your attempts to understand. That means a lot. I think it's cool that you care enough to ask the question.
I guess now is a good time to bring up how uncomfortable *I* am bringing up BIID-related stuff on this board. Yes, I do it all the time, because for me devoteeism is so intricately tied up with BIID that I have a very hard time separating the two, I can hardly talk about dev stuff without something about BIID being involved. I know I'm not the only one, and people on this board have confessed to me things that they don't want everyone to know, although in the female population the combination of the two seems to be a very, very small minority. Overall though, it's very common among devotees - so I firmly believe there is a strong link.
Sometimes I wonder if I'm welcome here...and yet, I *am* a dev, and where else can I talk about dev things? All that to say that every time I mention something about BIID, I kind of cringe, wondering what people are going to think, or how they're going to respond. It can be construed as off-topic, and yet it's tied up to my experience as a dev. And I know there are others, though I'm the only one saying...but if that's the case, then I feel I need to speak for those who can't, for whatever reason, speak for themselves. There's always this feeling of not really belonging, and would everyone prefer that I just go away? Yeah, that's probably more than you wanted to know about my inner insecurities but it does have to do with your question about why everyone has such a hard time with it. You have a hard time with it...*I* have a hard time with it.
I have met wheelers here who are totally fine with it. They are finer with it than I am. I'm invited to go wheeling with them! Most (not all) are the ones who have always been disabled, who were "born with it", which is interesting. And yet even these guys will (mostly) not be openly supportive of me if something comes up in public where I could use a little support. It's okay to say things to me privately, to support me privately, but to be seen publicly to be in favor of pretenders and BIID...not so much. I gotta admit, it hurts.
Why do people have such a hard time with it? I think it's because people view disability as a negative. You might think you don't...you might be a dev, or disabled, or anyone else who is in favor of disability rights. But in the end, deep down, subconsciously even, disability is a negative, it's an undesirable human state, no one wants it, because it's bad, it's wrong, and against the natural order of things to have a body that doesn't function properly. Disabled is not "normal". It's inconvenient. It inconveniences others. It weakens the pack. It is unattractive, it looks weak, it's "survival of the fittest" in our deepest subconscious. Yes, you may be attracted to paralyzed limbs but would you, yourself feel that your own paralyzed limbs were attractive? So, we live with this inside of us. YES - we overcome these things because we have a higher cognitive function that is able to do that (important point). But deep inside, it's still there buried in our instinct. So along comes someone who desires this "abnormal" state. You're a dev and you're repulsed that someone would want to be voluntarily disabled. You're a para, and you're disgusted that someone would want to be a para. I believe that in the end, peoples' reactions to BIID reflect their deepest inner feelings about disability. If you're disgusted that someone would want to be a para...then what is that really saying about what you really feel about paraplegia? If it disgusts you, then you have to be seeing paraplegia as a negative, on some level. If paraplegia were a positive, or neutral, then the idea that someone would want to be a paraplegic would leave you feeling positive or just neutral.
I'm not saying that paraplegia is a positive. I'm not saying that these instincts are wrong. Objectively, paraplegia is not to be desired. Objectively, it sucks. Objectively, no one should want this. That's why BIID is a mental illness. Because we abnormally desire (intensely!) an abnormal and undesirable state.
Often, people will come around to being OK with BIID because with reflection and a desire to understand their higher cognitive functions will kick in that allow them to see it from a more intellectual and humanistic point of view. Sometimes the only reason people don't come around is because they're afraid of what everyone else will think: personally they are okay with it, but they're still afraid of being openly okay with it. Sometimes they don't come around because of issues with pretenders taking up resources, which is a totally different issue from why BIID in and of itself is so repulsive. Sometimes they don't come around because they are simply unable to intellectually overcome their instinctual feelings that disability is a negative.
As for Gender Identity Disorder, I think it's easier to understand because, while they desire a different physical state like we do, they are still desiring a "normal" physical state. There's nothing "wrong" with being female, so it's easier to accept a male wanting to be female than it is to accept a male wanting to be a paraplegic. FWIW, I believe there's a link between the two, because there are a lot of transsexuals who are also transabled (not a scientific study, just a personal observation).
So, those are my thoughts. I may be way off base, I don't know. Or I may be partly right but there's more to it. But, it's what I think. I would be very interested to you YOUR thoughts (and anyone else's) and am okay with a frank discussion about it.
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Post by BA on Feb 12, 2008 11:10:30 GMT -5
Why do people have such a hard time with it? I think it's because people view disability as a negative. You might think you don't...you might be a dev, or disabled, or anyone else who is in favor of disability rights. But in the end, deep down, subconsciously even, disability is a negative, it's an undesirable human state, no one wants it, because it's bad, it's wrong, and against the natural order of things to have a body that doesn't function properly. Disabled is not "normal". It's inconvenient. It inconveniences others. It weakens the pack. It is unattractive, it looks weak, it's "survival of the fittest" in our deepest subconscious. Yes, you may be attracted to paralyzed limbs but would you, yourself feel that your own paralyzed limbs were attractive? So, we live with this inside of us. YES - we overcome these things because we have a higher cognitive function that is able to do that (important point). But deep inside, it's still there buried in our instinct. So along comes someone who desires this "abnormal" state. You're a dev and you're repulsed that someone would want to be voluntarily disabled. You're a para, and you're disgusted that someone would want to be a para. I believe that in the end, peoples' reactions to BIID reflect their deepest inner feelings about disability. If you're disgusted that someone would want to be a para...then what is that really saying about what you really feel about paraplegia? If it disgusts you, then you have to be seeing paraplegia as a negative, on some level. If paraplegia were a positive, or neutral, then the idea that someone would want to be a paraplegic would leave you feeling positive or just neutral. I'm not saying that paraplegia is a positive. I'm not saying that these instincts are wrong. Objectively, paraplegia is not to be desired. Objectively, it sucks. Objectively, no one should want this. That's why BIID is a mental illness. Because we abnormally desire (intensely!) an abnormal and undesirable state. Claire, thank you for a wonderful response. You are questioning whether you are "welcome" on this board. For my part, you are MORE than welcome. You have a great deal to contribute and you are teaching me a great deal about aspects of the dev phenomenon that I haven't even come close to grasping. You have obviously done a great deal of reading and soul-searching. Since I put being a "dev" into the back-burner of my subconcious (out of guilt) for so many years, I have repressed much with regard to open conversation about the topic. I thank you for that! As for your thoughts on why people have such a hard time with BIID and the view of disability as generally negative ('ouch'!)  you are right!! Well, at least for me. Deep down there is that feeling that it is somehow WAY WRONG. I have felt this way as a dev. How could I be SO attracted to what someone else and society at large deems negative?  And yet there is a big part of me that doesn't see it as negative at all. It's a true conflict and one that I have yet to resolve. Therefore I may view it as sexy and attractive on someone else, but certainly not on ME! Wake up call to me. I am curious about one aspect of this as related to the guys on the board. I want to know if they find all of their disabled parts sexy or if they just 'tolerate' me finding it sexy. So, I guess I will post that very question on the General Board. |
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Post by Claire on Feb 12, 2008 13:44:02 GMT -5
Claire, thank you for a wonderful response. You are questioning whether you are "welcome" on this board. For my part, you are MORE than welcome. You have a great deal to contribute Thanks, that's nice to know.  I can relate; I have repressed SO MUCH. For a decade after I found out devotees and wannabes existed, I repressed, hard. Then one day it all became too much and I posted on a BIID board (I was sooooo scared!!) and after that it all kind of came rushing out, like an explosion...all that I kept inside for so long. Now that it's out, there's no way it's going back in. The only way out is through... As for reading and soul-searching, I'll freely admit that much of my inspiration comes from Sean O'Connor, who used to post as wylz on this board. Many people have many things to say but he's the one who makes the most sense to me. He's been thinking and writing about this for the 10 years that I was strongly repressing it, not to mention being married to a para for 5 years and living as a para for 10. I'm capable of having an original thought or two, but if I do, often he's the one that led me there. (Btw his latest blog post was really...really...I don't have the words for what it was...He's mentioned that you and he have talked before so you might like to read it.) I also freely admit to being an idiot and getting it all wrong at times... Yes, me too. How can I find something so beautiful and desirable in what most people consider a tragedy? Do I find joy in other people's misfortune? Does that make me a bad person? Sadism? And on and on... Exactly! On the other hand, we find real beauty where most of the world doesn't see it. That's a good thing! Maybe they're the blind ones, and we're the ones who can really see. There is a good side to devoteeism. There's something to be learned there, even something that the disabled can learn about themselves by learning about us. (Is that too presumptuous??? Maybe...) Then there are the devotee creeps who ruin it all for everyone. And I feel guilty by association. The anger that I feel towards THOSE devs knows no bounds. Interesting question, isn't it? Why that duality? Excellent question. Hope they answer! |
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Post by Cake on Feb 12, 2008 17:31:48 GMT -5
Wow. This is such a great thread. And both of you have said so many essential things.
I've never had a problem with BIID and never will, probably because there's an aspect of my personal devness which is kind of connected to it, though still something completely different. And besides, I practically can't think of any mental illness that I would even consider to condemn. I struggled with me being a devotee for so many years and sometimes still do. I know that our desire is not normal, I know it's kind of a disorder, too (and I know how many of the devs around here will hate me for calling it that), and that there's nothing I can do about it. So how could I possibly be judgmental when it comes to BIID? Mental illnesses are a burden, and I think everyone who, for example, has ever suffered from severe depression or has a family member who has, knows that.
So I think one big reason why so many have a problem with BIID is that they don't have any basic understanding of mental illnesses in general, and therefore still think that "you can do something about it", or even "make it go away if you would only see how wrong it is", which is complete bullsh*t.
Having said that, I'd like to add that I really feel for you, Claire. It's so hard to live with something that eats you up inside and not to be able to make it go away. And like you said, you've obviously tried to make it go away. That never works. Isn't this something that every dev should understand?
BTW, it's probably a good thing you posted this in the Devs Only section...
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Post by devogirl on Feb 12, 2008 19:26:39 GMT -5
Claire, I know I've told you this before but just in case there is anyone else who isn't clear on this, even though this is a devotee site, people with BIID are welcome to participate and discuss BIID if they want to. Of course, I can't promise that other members won't make negative comments. But I always admire the way you have of trying to educate, rather than getting defensive and hostile.
And I think Cake is right, we should have sympathy. But it seems people get the most angry when they see someone else doing something they've decided is wrong, but that cuts a little too close to home... not that devos are all latent wannabes, but many people seem to think we are, and many of us experimented with pretending as children. So we've had to expend a lot of energy to separate "us" devos from those "other" pretenders, and continually affirm (even just to ourselves) that we are not like them. I think it's the same reason why the non-devo wives of disabled men get so angry at us.
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Post by Claire on Feb 13, 2008 7:25:52 GMT -5
I know that our desire is not normal, I know it's kind of a disorder, too (and I know how many of the devs around here will hate me for calling it that) Not me, I think you're right. There is this concept of a "benign paraphilia". That's what this is. Women being inherently much less prone to paraphilias than men, in most if not all of us here, there is nothing harmful about it except the guilt or shame we harbor within ourselves. The fact that devoteeism can go beyond benign and become frankly exploitive (in many men) is indisputable and proof, I think, that it is a paraphilia. I think that the female devs who deny this have never really come into contact with those kinds of people. OMG, that is such a good point, Cake, and I'm mad at myself for not having made it myself! lol I'm grateful to you that you did. You can't just turn it off. Someone telling you "being a para sucks, you have no idea what you want, you're clueless" is not going to make mental illness go away. It will probably do nothing but increase your confusion and your guilt, not to mention the hurt of rejection. This is a delicate point but I will say it here since we're in dev's only...I have been told so many times "You have no effing clue what it's like to be a para." That's right, I don't. I never said I did. But they have no effing clue what it's like to have BIID either. Tit for tat! They just don't understand mental illness, and to them, I should be able to just turn it off because it doesn't make sense or simply because it offends them. It's like because you can *see* paraplegia, it's more real than mental illness which is invisible. But asking me to just turn it off is like asking them to get up and walk away. There is no more treatment for BIID than there is for SCI. Collectively, we have tried EVERYTHING...and nothing works. (Well, that's not technically true, what I just said. Another delicate point...there IS a very effective treatment for BIID, except no one has safe access to it. 'Nuff said.) Thanks. Yeah, it is...but there is always the possibility of educating, and I've brought around more than one in my day. I'll endure ten flamings to bring just one around. In any case, I know they're reading. And they can PM me if they want to talk about it. |
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Post by Claire on Feb 13, 2008 8:01:11 GMT -5
Claire, I know I've told you this before Thanks. Yes, you have, and I didn't doubt the moderators at all! A few members have made me feel unwelcome...but mostly it's just me, feeling insecure about the whole thing. I wouldn't want to take over the board with this, but I guess you're right, it's no more OT than a lot of the other stuff that goes on...comparisions of wheelchairs, for example. I enjoy those topics, even though they're somewhat OT for devism. Thanks. We have seen that before and it makes me cringe and wish they'd go away because they make us look so bad... I appreciate that. For the record, though, I'm not looking for sympathy. Empathy, maybe, and equality, and access. Yes, and there are many people with BIID who get pissed that they're always lumped in with the paraphiliacs! Me, straddling the fence, I don't see what's so bad about either. Sure, it's not accurate to say that one is always the other, but there's nothing offensive about it. Or there shouldn't be. That's interesting! I have never heard that, but of course it makes sense. It might make a good question for the General board...what do your wives think of devs? |
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you are right!! Well, at least for me. Deep down there is that feeling that it is somehow WAY WRONG. I have felt this way as a dev. How could I be SO attracted to what someone else and society at large deems negative?
And yet there is a big part of me that doesn't see it as negative at all. It's a true conflict and one that I have yet to resolve. Therefore I may view it as sexy and attractive on someone else, but certainly not on ME! 
