Is it really such a big deal?

[quadin91]

I've been thinking recently after having a discussion with a few people. Is being a dev such a big deal? does it really need to be kept a secret? It's 2024 there are multiple genders and orientations out there. They will almost always all receive some amount of flack from certain minorities wherever you are in the world
(granted some places more than others). I mean look at the back and forth between vegans and meat Eaters there is always going to be conflicting views no matter the subject!

Obviously I am sat on the other side of the table in regards to this. I am not a dev so I do not know how you feel which is partly why I'm asking the question to get a broader answer.

I'm sure each individuals answer will be completely different as it is a personal preference just the same as it is a personal preference on how much you like to share details of your life with people. An example... I personally do not share my dating experiences or relationships with my family or Friends until there is something serious happening. It is just something I keep close to my chest.

So without rambling on too much in 2024 (nearly 2025 🤯) how do you feel about being in this situation with someone close to you who doesn't know you're a dev...

You the dev: "I'm going on a date with a guy"

The someone close to you: "Oh that's cool what does he look like have you got a picture?

Do you...
A. Show them a head and shoulder photo hoping they don't ask anymore.

B. Show them a full photo of your guy sat in the wheelchair.

You would love to hear your answers and the reason behind said answers

I don't want this to cause any conflict I am just a curious mind wondering...

[dutchdev]

Sept 29, 2024 10:03:51 GMT -5 quadin91 said:

I've been thinking recently after having a discussion with a few people. Is being a dev such a big deal? does it really need to be kept a secret? It's 2024 there are multiple genders and orientations out there. They will almost always all receive some amount of flack from certain minorities wherever you are in the world
(granted some places more than others). I mean look at the back and forth between vegans and meat Eaters there is always going to be conflicting views no matter the subject!

Obviously I am sat on the other side of the table in regards to this. I am not a dev so I do not know how you feel which is partly why I'm asking the question to get a broader answer.

I'm sure each individuals answer will be completely different as it is a personal preference just the same as it is a personal preference on how much you like to share details of your life with people. An example... I personally do not share my dating experiences or relationships with my family or Friends until there is something serious happening. It is just something I keep close to my chest.

So without rambling on too much in 2024 (nearly 2025 🤯) how do you feel about being in this situation with someone close to you who doesn't know you're a dev...

You the dev: "I'm going on a date with a guy"

The someone close to you: "Oh that's cool what does he look like have you got a picture?

Do you...
A. Show them a head and shoulder photo hoping they don't ask anymore.

B. Show them a full photo of your guy sat in the wheelchair.

You would love to hear your answers and the reason behind said answers

I don't want this to cause any conflict I am just a curious mind wondering...

You are partially right, I have recently told my first person outside the dev world that I am a dev. The response was fascination, but besides that nothing but respect and a serious attempt at understanding.

I simultaneously told her I was going on a date (bit of an understatement) with a PWD and showed her pictures. Obviously no need to hide anything since she already knew.

Big part of the reason I didn’t tell anybody else was, the part she also considered problematic, I had to take a plane to go on that date with a “stranger” I met online.

After this experience I think I can tell most of my friends because they are openminded and will probably respond similarly. I think I have a bigger problem with those a bit further away, co-workers for example, we discuss our dating live, but I don’t think I would want to share being a dev. that would mean the first wheeler isn’t an issue, but the second or third would raise questions.

[dutchdev]

So to answer your question, I would probably go all in with friends, and attempt to hide with the second tier.

[ayla]

I would definitely show the full picture! (If it were the most convenient option -- I wouldn't go digging around for a full body if I had a headshot handy; basically I wouldn't go out of my way to show/hide the disability).  I wouldn't be embarrassed or concerned at all about dating a wheeler because I don't think there is any stigma at all against that in my community. I live in a very progressive part of the country and it's considered appropriate to date with "an open mind" with regard to race, disability, even gender. Even non-monogamy can be brought up in conversation without anyone skipping a beat.

HOWEVER, there's a big difference between "open minded" and dev. I don't care who knows that I'm with a disabled guy; I very much DO care who knows that I seek them out. That's where the stigma lies. Honestly, I'm most fearful of revealing this to very progressive people (i.e. the majority of my social circle). It sounds counterintuitive, you'd think that people who don't bat an eye at BDSM, polyamory, etc. wouldn't care that I happen to have a different ideal of male attractiveness. But in progressive circles, there's a lot of talk about the hierarchies of oppression and privilege. I worry that this lens will cause them to view disabled men as more vulnerable/marginalized than me, and view my interest in them as potentially exploitative.

I always prided myself on being part of the most open-minded groups I could find. I was raised not to judge others unless their behavior causes harm, and I value being among people who can allow one another to hold different (even conflicting) viewpoints. So, I've always been in the live-and-let-live camp. Sadly, in the last few years I have seen my community change a lot with regard to tolerance. it has become the norm to be intolerant of anything viewed as "problematic." So, this is why I am still quite guarded about being a dev.

I think one issue we have to address are people's assumptions about WHY we like who and what we like. For example, if you believe that someone who prefers to date Black partners must do so because they want to engage in "race play" in the bedroom, you'll definitely be more concerned. I think even disabled guys themselves are often guilty of the assumption that we devs must be motivated by a desire to nurture and/or dominate. Anyone who reads these message boards for an hour or two will be quickly corrected about those assumptions! People need to understand that for some of us, disabled people are just plain more attractive! That we don't need some ulterior motive in order to desire them! 

[not THAT violet]

I have a lot of personal hangups related to not growing up in an environment where I had agency over my thoughts and actions. Nothing truly awful, but very intrusive and judgy… and that’s with a family who all worked in disability-related areas and social justice (think Crip Camp, same general time period).

It’s not the being with a PWD that gets me. It’s the way I relate to a marginalized group that has been treated poorly by the majority of people they’ve interacted with, often with truly abusive and life-threatening consequences.

They’re already at a disadvantage because of the way society sees and systematically excludes them. Then I come in, and they don’t feel like getting to know me because (rightly so) all they’ve heard about devs is fetishistic and exploitative.

My feelings in this situation don’t matter. I’m at a major power differential. I don’t want to be seen as taking advantage of PWDs regardless of whether other people view PWDs as their own complete selves or something “less than.”

[blindLeap]

I think a nuance to place there is that you don't HAVE to be a devotee to date a disabled person, either. Like ... people would only really clue into it if you show them pictures of several different folks in wheelchairs in a row which might pop up some question marks... but for say, a day at the office talking to your colleague, you can show them whatever picture you like at least initially, I'd think. This coming from a blind person who's had plenty of sighted partners none of which were devotees

[ayla]

Sept 29, 2024 17:56:18 GMT -5 not THAT violet said:

My feelings in this situation don’t matter. I’m at a major power differential. I don’t want to be seen as taking advantage of PWDs regardless of whether other people view PWDs as their own complete selves or something “less than.”

Can you elaborate on this? I don’t want to be seen as taking advantage either but to me that is a flaw in someone else’s logic. I don’t believe that I’m automatically in a position of power over a pwd.

[not THAT violet]

Sept 29, 2024 20:42:56 GMT -5 ayla said:

I don’t believe that I’m automatically in a position of power over a pwd.

🤷🏻‍♀️

I mean, it is what it is.

Even if you consider a group not marginalized in a particular sphere, or subscribe to a more libertarian view, this is like any other fight for personal rights:
“No Taxation Without Representation”
“[insert reproductive rights slogan here - let’s go with “Get Your Own Uterus”]”
And, obviously, “Nothing About Us Without Us.”

You can make the playing field as even as possible in your one-on-one interactions with PWDs, but you can still step out of that situation at any time. You can forget about marriage penalties, bus schedules, DME reimbursements, catheter shipments, curb cuts, PCA issues, all that. Not that you WOULD… but you CAN. And you probably do, because your life doesn’t depend on it.

Systematic oppression means PWDs are disabled by environments that do not meet their needs. It means that whether we refer to legislators or professionals (too few of whom are involved), the decisions affecting the lives and livelihoods of PWDs are almost never made by a proportion of PWDs reflecting those needs. We KNOW PWDs are too often not even in the room when these discussions happen.

You don’t have to believe in your own privilege for it to be a fact.

[blindLeap]

Ok I was going back and forth on engaging with this but I kinda feel I have to here.
First, you're not wrong. Society is absolutely designed with able-bodied folks in mind first and disabled folks second / not at all. In that, being able-bodied does ascribe privilege. I guess in a sense being "less disabled" does, too, e.g. I'm blind and don't need to care about curb cuts, ramps, the height of thresholds etc., I need to worry about inaccessible signage, forms, paperwork etc. which is objectively better or worse depending on what you consider important. Does that mean I am more privileged than an amputee or someone in a wheelchair? I wouldn't particularly think so but then, it's not something I worry about when I live my life, and I think that's where the crux of my point lies.
It's good to be aware of privilege. It's good to be aware of systemic oppression and it's good to, when you can, do something to go against that oppression. It's not good to consider that privilege a power dynamic within the personal domains of one's home, one's relationship and one's inner circle in my opinion.
If I were to be in a relationship with someone who constantly feels the need to point out, to me or themselves, that they are in a place of privilege compared to me, and therefore feel like there's an inequality of power between the two participants of the relationship, you're taking a systemic, wide-spread issue and amplifying it within a personal context. Somehow I feel that would become incredibly tiring and has serious potential to turn toxic.
Let me flip this on its head: I'm a disabled person who makes, say, 500k a year. You are an able-bodied individual that's unemployed, let's just go with extremes here. You are able-bodied and therefore privileged in that regard, but I have all the financial power, I can literally buy my way into a structure where my disability is essentially compensated by delegating what I can't do to a host of minions. What is the balance of power now?

Feel free to spin this off into another thread if we don't want to hijack this one, the topic feels marginally off-topic to me given the OP's question was if being a devf is really such a big issue when talking about dating a PWD, but Ialso can't really leave this hanging in good conscience.

[dutchdev]

Oct 1, 2024 7:43:37 GMT -5 blindLeap said:

Ok I was going back and forth on engaging with this but I kinda feel I have to here.
First, you're not wrong. Society is absolutely designed with able-bodied folks in mind first and disabled folks second / not at all. In that, being able-bodied does ascribe privilege. I guess in a sense being "less disabled" does, too, e.g. I'm blind and don't need to care about curb cuts, ramps, the height of thresholds etc., I need to worry about inaccessible signage, forms, paperwork etc. which is objectively better or worse depending on what you consider important. Does that mean I am more privileged than an amputee or someone in a wheelchair? I wouldn't particularly think so but then, it's not something I worry about when I live my life, and I think that's where the crux of my point lies.
It's good to be aware of privilege. It's good to be aware of systemic oppression and it's good to, when you can, do something to go against that oppression. It's not good to consider that privilege a power dynamic within the personal domains of one's home, one's relationship and one's inner circle in my opinion.
If I were to be in a relationship with someone who constantly feels the need to point out, to me or themselves, that they are in a place of privilege compared to me, and therefore feel like there's an inequality of power between the two participants of the relationship, you're taking a systemic, wide-spread issue and amplifying it within a personal context. Somehow I feel that would become incredibly tiring and has serious potential to turn toxic.
Let me flip this on its head: I'm a disabled person who makes, say, 500k a year. You are an able-bodied individual that's unemployed, let's just go with extremes here. You are able-bodied and therefore privileged in that regard, but I have all the financial power, I can literally buy my way into a structure where my disability is essentially compensated by delegating what I can't do to a host of minions. What is the balance of power now?

Feel free to spin this off into another thread if we don't want to hijack this one, the topic feels marginally off-topic to me given the OP's question was if being a devf is really such a big issue when talking about dating a PWD, but Ialso can't really leave this hanging in good conscience.

Same reluctance and feeling, while everything you say is completely true, that does not translate to a power dynamic. While we can be allies, activists or whatever else, we do not influence those circumstances so it is not a power dynamic. Yes we can and do forget about the inaccesibility of society sometimes when going through live, but that does not equal a powerdynamic. When I think about a powerdynamic within a relationship I think of ways someone can influence their future (teachers, bosses), not the simple fact I am more priviliged. Based on what you are saying any relationship between a male and female has a powerdynamic due to male privilige.

[dutchdev]

To me having a powerdynamic within a relationship sounds toxic and as a major red flag. Even if there are obvious power differentials (eg the money blindLeap mentioned) if someone would use that power in any way it is time to get out of that relationship asap.

[ayla]

Thanks for adding a little more nuance. I'll readily admit I have the privilege of being non-disabled, the privilege of having society designed with my needs in mind (generally speaking). I'm unclear how this impacts whether or not dating disabled partners is a "big deal."

Referring the wider question of power differentials to this new thread (thanks dutch!): paradevo.proboards.com/thread/10957/pwd-experience-powerdynamic-ab

I am having trouble understanding what you not THAT violet mean when you say:

"It’s not the being with a PWD that gets me. It’s the way I relate to a marginalized group..."
Do you mean you don't thinkl it's ethical or appropriate to feel attracted to someone because of their membership in said group?
Or do you mean that that's the aspect which is "a big deal" as per the OP's question?
When you say "My feelings in this situation don’t matter. I’m at a major power differential. I don’t want to be seen as taking advantage of PWDs regardless of [the validity of others' opinions]," is that meant to imply that you refrain from dating pwd out of a sense of ethical wrong? Or am I reading this completely wrong?

I hope I'm not coming off argumentative, that's not my intention at all. When I asked you to elaborate, I really wanted to know what your feelings about power differentials and privileges mean for your actual behavior as a dev. 

[devogirl]

Sept 29, 2024 17:56:18 GMT -5 not THAT violet said:

I have a lot of personal hangups related to not growing up in an environment where I had agency over my thoughts and actions. Nothing truly awful, but very intrusive and judgy… and that’s with a family who all worked in disability-related areas and social justice (think Crip Camp, same general time period).

It’s not the being with a PWD that gets me. It’s the way I relate to a marginalized group that has been treated poorly by the majority of people they’ve interacted with, often with truly abusive and life-threatening consequences.

They’re already at a disadvantage because of the way society sees and systematically excludes them. Then I come in, and they don’t feel like getting to know me because (rightly so) all they’ve heard about devs is fetishistic and exploitative.

My feelings in this situation don’t matter. I’m at a major power differential. I don’t want to be seen as taking advantage of PWDs regardless of whether other people view PWDs as their own complete selves or something “less than.”

I'm still not sure what you're saying even after the clarification. I mean, I get what you're saying about structural inequality. But if you are engaging in an intimate relationship, then your feelings do matter. Are you saying that you can't come out to your family because they will be judgy and assume you're taking advantage?

Structural inequality is a problem for everyone but by this logic all hetero relationships are also unethical.

[dutchdev]

After telling my second friend today, my answer is No, it is not. The problem is mainly how do people talk about it behind your back and does that matter. Both friends are pretty trust worthy, so I am sure they won’t blab about it. For me the problem lies in the friends in town, if people talk about me I don’t care, but if it would impact my kids it would bother me.

Because of the conversation we had it made me realize something else, they might know PWD’s they can set you up with. So telling as many people as possible can definitely have benefits. 🤣🤣🤣

[quadin91]

Oct 3, 2024 12:26:42 GMT -5 dutchdev said:

After telling my second friend today, my answer is No, it is not. The problem is mainly how do people talk about it behind your back and does that matter. Both friends are pretty trust worthy, so I am sure they won’t blab about it. For me the problem lies in the friends in town, if people talk about me I don’t care, but if it would impact my kids it would bother me.

Because of the conversation we had it made me realize something else, they might know PWD’s they can set you up with. So telling as many people as possible can definitely have benefits. 🤣🤣🤣

Love this! These are the kind of answers I wanted to see I am obviously curious about the others but I think that this particular answer shows progress on different levels! the devs that are scared to "come out". The pwds that might be afraid of what people might think if they find out their partner is a dev. Also the fact that I really don't think people actually care that much! As I said in the op it's 2024 the world is always evolving and gets used to whatever "new thing on the Block" although I'm fully aware that this is not a new thing and has been around for probably as long as humans have been around. There are always going to be people( hopefully a small minority) that talk behind your back that is completely out of your control. One of my mantras is "if you can't change it don't worry about it! If you can change it, don't worry about it!" I do on the other hand completely understand your point raised about the possibility of it affecting your children! Let's just pray it doesn't come to that! Anyway so pleased you've had good feedback from two of your friends and hopefully you can continue to freely express yourself without the fear of being judged because at the end of the day, is it really such a big deal? I think not!

Side note! I can appreciate I am not a Dev I do not know the struggles you have gone through and if you have struggled I'm sorry to hear it! I hope that the answers here help you feel more comfort about the way you are and your feelings towards PWDS!