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Post by E on Dec 13, 2010 19:35:26 GMT -5
ACTIONS SPEAK LOUDER THAN WORDS!!!!! I'm not going to rattle off my "actions" around here. And never once, when I have "acted", have I said, "Look what I've done! What's wrong with the rest of you?" The fact that no one seems to have read this book, proves to me how selfish most wheelers on here are. Yeah, yeah, I am sure we will here a myriad of excuses. But the fact remains you guys couldn't be bothered to read it, or have not made it a priority in any way. And again, this is what's bothering me. I am a huge champion of this board and of devotees, but I just don't see how having not read a book YET makes anyone SELFISH. Yes, I have a myriad of excuses -- all very valid. And to be quite frank, reading this novel is NOT a top priority. That doesn't make me a bad person. It means I have my priorities in order. You said you read it in a few hours while at work. If I had hours to kill at my office, then yeah, I'd probably be chomping at the bit for new reading material. But in all honesty, while I'm a huge fan of this forum, it's far from a priority. LOTS of things come before it. Family, friends, work, religion, dates, education, socialization all rank higher than Paradevo. I don't think that makes me selfish or uncaring. I think that's pretty darn healthy. And when I do read it, and if I had read it first, you won't see me saying how "selfish" and disingenuous those who haven't yet are.
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Post by E on Dec 13, 2010 19:46:48 GMT -5
BA, that's a touching story, and I'm sorry your husband did not treat you like the priority you should be in his life.
But Ruth Madison isn't my wife. And she didn't write her novel as a personal letter to me. And so, other things will come first.
And what's crazy to me is that, after so long, my annoyance at being rushed to action and being labeled selfish and uncaring, translates into ME finding individuals "invalid." People I've talked to. People who are distinctly aware how valid I find them. People who have told me and posted such great compliments for my understanding and sincere desire to learn, and my success in doing so.
How... fickle? Is that the right word?
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Post by Cake on Dec 13, 2010 20:21:08 GMT -5
WOW. Where do I even start. There's so much I want to say on this. First of all, thank you Wonk. Thank you, thank you, thank you for really caring and trying to understand and making an effort. You truly realized that this board is a Devotee Board, for Devotees, and how important it is for us that if you guys decide to join this forum you also respect that there is more to us than meets the eye and try to understand us better. Most of the guys on here probably won't read it because, I don't believe they really give a sh*t! Many just seem to pay lip service to understanding the ladies on here. It really is exactly the same as the attitude that seems prevalent : "Hey why should I make any effort at all, I am a wheeler, you are a dev, so you must want me, you make all the effort come and get me for sex!" Sadly, this is so f*cking true. There's nothing about PD that pisses me off more. So again, thank you for not being one of those guys. The guys you're talking about probably won't even read this thread and much less respond, because yeah, they don't really want to *know* about Devotees. Next, E...: And again, this is what's bothering me. I am a huge champion of this board and of devotees, but I just don't see how having not read a book YET makes anyone SELFISH. Yes, I have a myriad of excuses -- all very valid. And to be quite frank, reading this novel is NOT a top priority. That doesn't make me a bad person. It means I have my priorities in order. You said you read it in a few hours while at work. If I had hours to kill at my office, then yeah, I'd probably be chomping at the bit for new reading material. But in all honesty, while I'm a huge fan of this forum, it's far from a priority. LOTS of things come before it. Family, friends, work, religion, dates, education, socialization all rank higher than Paradevo. I don't think that makes me selfish or uncaring. I think that's pretty darn healthy. And when I do read it, and if I had read it first, you won't see me saying how "selfish" and disingenuous those who haven't yet are. We know you're one of the guys here who get us, I most definitely do. And so you should know that Wonk's call wasn't directed at you. It was directed at the guys who don't give a sh*t. In fact, you shouldn't have felt like the one being accused of anything when reading Wonk's post. You're not one of those guys who don't care. But you also know very well how many of those are on this board and I think THEY should feel spoken to here, hell yeah, and therefore I appreciate the biting tone of Wonk's post. The same goes for BA's post. Most definitely not directed at you! Isn't that obvious?! Finally, AB: I have heard many of you guys express a tinge of anger when you find out that we "supposed devs" have ended up in relationships with AB guys. I mean, what kind of dev denies her own deepest need? What kind of bull is that? Is it just us giving lip-service to our 'fantasy', but when it comes time to settle down, we shy away from the realities of day to day life with you? YES. Actually, I take back what I said above. THIS is what pisses me off the most. 100% ditto. Also, many of the guys here seem to confuse two different things: They confuse understanding us for their own benefit with understanding us just because they care. I've heard so many guys here say things of the kinds of: "I really want to understand you women, you Devs, because I have no idea how to impress you. What do you girls want? I need to know how you Devotees tick, so I can catch one of you." Well, that's NOT wanting to understand us, that's just wanting a Dev chick of your own. Really caring and trying to understand is what Wonk's been doing (and a few others): Just being here and learning, not with focus on catching a fish here, but out of genuine interest and respect.
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Post by devogirl on Dec 13, 2010 20:53:10 GMT -5
Let's not all fly off the handle here. I agree with all of you. E is one of the few guys here who really truly gets it, and shouldn't be harassed about reading the book RIGHT THIS MINUTE. After all, the book came out like a year ago, and it's only now for whatever reason the posts about it reached critical mass so we're all thinking about it right now. It's not like the book's appearance is breaking news.
On the other hand, I do appreciate Wonk's consideration in reading it. And the guys here who keep asking the same questions about devs over and over really should read it if they really want some insight.
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Post by matisse on Dec 13, 2010 20:55:04 GMT -5
Given the variety in women's feelings about things, I'm actually a little surprised that no dev has stepped in to say the exact opposite: that she would find a rush to read the book a little creepy. Do you really want a guy in your head that much? Maybe some women would, but I would guess that some women would not.
I don't think you can generalize and say that *every* guy who isn't prioritizing this book is somehow unworthy of a dev or is a hypocrite. It's certainly true of some guys. Of E, I think not.
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Post by Cake on Dec 13, 2010 21:02:15 GMT -5
Let's not all fly off the handle here. I agree with all of you. E is one of the few guys here who really truly gets it, and shouldn't be harassed about reading the book RIGHT THIS MINUTE. After all, the book came out like a year ago, and it's only now for whatever reason the posts about it reached critical mass so we're all thinking about it right now. It's not like the book's appearance is breaking news. But NO-ONE is harassing E!! Wonk wasn't talking to E with his sarcastic choice of words. And we're not attacking E either. So there's NO reason to make this thread about that. This thread should be about Wonk's initial post and the lack of response to it... Or something like that.
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Post by MarineAmp on Dec 13, 2010 21:56:33 GMT -5
Oh and BTW marineamp, I know someone in your house has a copy!!!! ;D Thanks for the reminder. No I haven't read the book explaining my wife, mainly because I've known her for three years now and I knew about her being a dev from day one. This was all very new to me and it was the first time ever hearing about this type of attraction. I wasn't bothered by this as some appear to be. I was initially bothered by wannabes, successful wannabes and fakers. And in some circumstances they can still find a button of mine to push. Back to the subject, in defense of these guys that "just don't give a shit" you can't really blame them too much. I kinda feel like I was one of those guys. When we talk to our friends and are discussing what attracts us to a girl, we typically can answer that question in a paragraph or less. So to expect a guy to read an entire book about what you are attracted to might seem a little overboard for someone new to this world. When my wife and I first started dating, I really wasn't expecting anything to come from it, in fact I was pretty much thinking it was going to be a weekend of sex and whatever else filled the time (just like a lot of the guys you are complaining about). Mainly because she lived on the other side of the country from me and I had my share of failed long distance relationships by this point. Luckily we had quite a bit in common and we both eventually saw potential to pursue what might come from this. From then on my understanding of devs has increased. However if she asked me to read a book to help understand her better, I honestly doubt I would have read it. Mainly because I'm not a huge novel reader, but also because I had my very own dev to talk to and if questions arose, she was there to answer them. I don't know what the demographics of this group is specifically, but I'm willing to bet, there are guys in here who have yet to be with a girl post injury, or even at all, and until they finally have sex, that is probably what is going to be on their mind. And if it doesn't seem to be on their mind, it is because they are hiding it pretty well. Not to rip on you Wonk, but at first impression, you remind me of a friend I served with. He is constantly posting some of the sappiest crap on facebook, and when I ripped him one for it, I received a private message in short saying "I am trying to impress a girl." What I'm guessing is you're dealing with two general types of guys. Guys who will do just about anything to impress you or guys who are just going to be themselves and if you don't like it you have the option not to deal with it. Ya some things are pretty interesting about the dev world I would probably read a short article about it, but I'd much rather talk about it, or listen to someone talk about it. I really enjoyed Lavly conversation with my wife, which is what motivated me to join this group, but don't tell/strongly suggest me or anyone else that we "have to" read this book to get a clear understanding. It just doesn't always work that way with everyone. I'm sure I stepped on some toes in here, but hopefully I didn't stomp any of them.
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Post by wonk on Dec 13, 2010 22:39:00 GMT -5
No worries, I am a big boy and can take whatever is said, and I ALWAYS appreciate honesty even if i disagree with what is said. Funnily enough I am not out to impress anyone on here, but have made a number of new friends who I care for a lot.
I have been in a chair for 20 years so I think I know myself fairly well, however I lived in a small town and had no idea about devs, but wanted to learn more, then met some wonderful ladies on here.
My first post in this thread was fairly bland, but after more than a week and the thread about to disappear to the second page I decided to resurrect it, and to be honest didn't care how much flack I got, I just wanted a reaction. I sure got one, and this is now a most interesting thread, I hope it spurs a few guys into action.
You are a lucky guy, Emma seems like a great catch, and maybe you are for her as well.
I have 2 pieces of unsolicited advice for you ;D this may or may not be worth the cyberspace it takes up.
Seeing as how you are so into talk, ask your wife if she would like you to read the book. I would be surprised if she doesn't, with the responses from all the other ladies on here.
If she would like you to read it... THEN read it.
Which is part of second piece of advice... HAPPY WIFE, HAPPY LIFE!!
In finishing, this thread isn't about Me or you or E, or anyone whose sensibilities I have offended, and frankly if some are offended i think that is a good sign.
This thread is about the book, I just hope some people get that and want to read it.
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Post by E on Dec 13, 2010 23:57:55 GMT -5
We know you're one of the guys here who get us, I most definitely do. And so you should know that Wonk's call wasn't directed at you. I'd like to agree with you, Cake, but Mr. Wonk disagrees... Thanks E Actually I had expected you to respond Logic says that if he expected me to respond, it's because he knew that I hadn't read the book (like all the wheelers... and likely half the devs, too, for that matter) and I was most certainly included in his sweeping generalization. I think it's great that he read it. I hope he really learned something. But his condemning of every other gimp here for not having sat down to read the 250-something pages of fiction AS SOON AS HUMANLY POSSIBLE, solely because we are wheelers, is more than a little annoying. In fact, he writes... A couple of the ladies expressed that the feelings and thoughts of the main character were unerringly accurate, If this is indeed the case then it was decided it should be essential reading for all wheelers. Which, at first glance, seems to look a bit like... I'm likely misguided on that one. I've never been to a "chat" with him. I just have the board to go by.
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Post by E on Dec 14, 2010 0:31:58 GMT -5
The same goes for BA's post. Most definitely not directed at you! Isn't that obvious?! And actually, Cake, I thought BA's post was directed at me. I was the only wheeler to respond, and I said that while I did plan to read the book, I hadn't yet, and I didn't like the "time limit" feel, or that I (and everyone else) was being unjustly labeled for not having read it quite yet, that I would get to it in time. I explained I had other priorities. She told a story about her husband not reading something that explained how she felt, and then him becoming upset when he discovered she had a rightful sense of urgency. She repeated similar language to draw the comparisons. "I didn't know it had a certain time limit! Jesus! I just haven't gotten to it yet. OK???" My answer very simply was, "No - it is now mine. I am so very sorry, but I do not think I will ever be able to show you what was written here." He was angry. I hadn't given him enough time. He had, however, had time to watch Sunday football on the couch for an entire day. That indeed was his priority. When someone comes along and actually reads something, as Mal has, and has thought about it and is able to discuss it - it does feel validating. To me at least. It means he wants to understand more and that it's important to him. A priority, in fact. As women, often our priorities are about others (spouses, b/f's, children). Maybe it is more in our nature to be this way.
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Post by BA on Dec 14, 2010 1:06:04 GMT -5
E, I totally did NOT mean you btw. I am directing this outward and general to the guys who will likely NEVER be remotely interested in reading this book and possibly not even this thread. I have quoted my spouse verbatim and indeed if you are NOT in a relationship with a devotee there is no great pressing need to read anything unless you really want to.
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Post by E on Dec 14, 2010 1:29:34 GMT -5
I guess I read too much into your story, then, BA. I saw direct parallels and thought it was a pretty straightforward metaphor. I'd like to step back from the minutiae and explain what, essentially, bothered me in the first place, and then I'll be done. If you look back at my initial post, I really was just saying that I didn't like Wonk's patronizing questions, and then explaining that unfortunately -- really, truly, sincere unfortunately -- I have lots of reading to catch up on before I got to this new book. I mentioned I was reading A Prayer for Owen Meany out of pure, casual, trivial sharing... and because BA recommended it as her favorite once upon a time. I keep reading that Wonk's post wasn't for me, but for those who really don't care. But that's not what his post said. What it said was, (in summary), "If you're a wheeler, and you're here, and you haven't read this yet, you don't care... and you're selfish." Actually, why summarize? The fact that no one seems to have read this book, proves to me how selfish most wheelers on here are. Yeah, yeah, I am sure we will here a myriad of excuses. But the fact remains you guys couldn't be bothered to read it, or have not made it a priority in any way. He was using the book, and if you'd read it, and in what amount of time, as the meter for who did and didn't care, and to what extent they care. That's what annoyed me. As a guy who does care, I felt wrongly judged because I didn't conform to some new, random qualification. An arbitrary gold standard of dev dedication that I did not possess, and now never could... having taken too long and not making it a "top priority." And maybe this is wrong, but I have a bit of pride over my concern for this place, and take some offense when that's challenged without real cause. As someone who hasn't read it, which was who HE said he was talking to, can you see why I might be offended at being told I don't care? After caring so long? ... just because I want to finish the book I'm on now first? ... maybe?
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Post by wheelieInCali on Dec 14, 2010 3:25:25 GMT -5
Oh and BTW marineamp, I know someone in your house has a copy!!!! ;D Thanks for the reminder. No I haven't read the book explaining my wife, mainly because I've known her for three years now and I knew about her being a dev from day one. This was all very new to me and it was the first time ever hearing about this type of attraction. I wasn't bothered by this as some appear to be. I was initially bothered by wannabes, successful wannabes and fakers. And in some circumstances they can still find a button of mine to push. Back to the subject, in defense of these guys that "just don't give a sh*t" you can't really blame them too much. I kinda feel like I was one of those guys. When we talk to our friends and are discussing what attracts us to a girl, we typically can answer that question in a paragraph or less. So to expect a guy to read an entire book about what you are attracted to might seem a little overboard for someone new to this world. When my wife and I first started dating, I really wasn't expecting anything to come from it, in fact I was pretty much thinking it was going to be a weekend of sex and whatever else filled the time (just like a lot of the guys you are complaining about). Mainly because she lived on the other side of the country from me and I had my share of failed long distance relationships by this point. Luckily we had quite a bit in common and we both eventually saw potential to pursue what might come from this. From then on my understanding of devs has increased. However if she asked me to read a book to help understand her better, I honestly doubt I would have read it. Mainly because I'm not a huge novel reader, but also because I had my very own dev to talk to and if questions arose, she was there to answer them. I don't know what the demographics of this group is specifically, but I'm willing to bet, there are guys in here who have yet to be with a girl post injury, or even at all, and until they finally have sex, that is probably what is going to be on their mind. And if it doesn't seem to be on their mind, it is because they are hiding it pretty well. Not to rip on you Wonk, but at first impression, you remind me of a friend I served with. He is constantly posting some of the sappiest crap on facebook, and when I ripped him one for it, I received a private message in short saying "I am trying to impress a girl." What I'm guessing is you're dealing with two general types of guys. Guys who will do just about anything to impress you or guys who are just going to be themselves and if you don't like it you have the option not to deal with it. Ya some things are pretty interesting about the dev world I would probably read a short article about it, but I'd much rather talk about it, or listen to someone talk about it. I really enjoyed Lavly conversation with my wife, which is what motivated me to join this group, but don't tell/strongly suggest me or anyone else that we "have to" read this book to get a clear understanding. It just doesn't always work that way with everyone. I'm sure I stepped on some toes in here, but hopefully I didn't stomp any of them. Right on! A man married to a happy dev said a lot of what I was too afraid to say for fear of ridicule. The first time I learned about devs, six years ago, had this book existed I would have read it immediately. At this point however, I've spoken with quite a few devs intimately, dated two. I felt like these comments about being selfish were directed at me as well, and maybe some of you do have that opinion of me. I think like my Marine comrade up there, I'd much rather learn about an individual than pigeonhole all devs from one book. I even spoke to one dev who read some and put it down before she finished it. Hilarious!
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Post by coffeeftw on Dec 14, 2010 8:32:30 GMT -5
This thread needs Chicken Soup for the soul.
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Post by BA on Dec 14, 2010 10:59:25 GMT -5
This thread needs Chicken Soup for the soul. Truly, being able to openly share some of the feelings this book evoked in me with some of you guys IS the chicken soup.
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