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Post by Ximena on Aug 21, 2012 15:12:42 GMT -5
VP, just wanted to say great thread idea. I find the subject interesting particularly in regards to progressive conditions also as it's something I explore a lot in my fiction - so I appreciate the input of the guys with MDs especially (or other progressive disorders) in regard to this topic (like TGG).
My perspective on it, personally, as an AB female dev, is that everyone deserves a chance to love and be loved. I would think that most people, even if you've had bad relationships and broken hearts, would agree that Shakespeare was right; "it's better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all."
I think that most people would rather have a few years or even a few months with someone they love who loves them than to live many many years never knowing what love is... But then that tends to be a theme I explore in a lot of my fiction, so maybe I'm biased...
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tina
Junior Member
Posts: 94
Relationship Status: In a relationship
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Post by tina on Aug 21, 2012 16:31:58 GMT -5
I think wanting a relationship is, to a certain amount, selfish. But that is true for ALL people and there is nothing wrong with that!! After all, wanting to be happy is a big part of being a healthy person. Unless you want a girlfriend because you need a new caregiver, that I`d really see as a problem.
To the "burden" part, while I get where this comes from, as an adult woman, I find this thinking pretty patronizing. I`m a big girl and decide for myself what I want in my live and what I can handle and what not, thank you very much.
I really don`t think that if a disabled guy is a "good match" to a woman depends that much on the physical limitations. It can certainly be a problem and I am sure it needs really good communication on both parts to make it work, but I think it really depends more on attitude. There are plently of ab men that wouldn`t be a good match for me due to 1000s of reasons which have nothing to do with healthy/ mobility, nor with the fact that I find wheelers hotter.
And how do you know if your potentinal partner will really be "better off" without you?! No one is invinceable and even the healthiest guy can get injured or seriously ill. Or turn out to be an asshole, or just incompartible.
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Post by Kid A on Aug 21, 2012 21:40:33 GMT -5
Selfish? Come now, men. This can't be how you really feel. Now I'm not saying this to belittle or invalidate your feelings, but I have to echo what many of the females are saying here. We are perfectly capable of making our own decisions and don't need anyone to "spare us". Love is love and no amount of extra effort in day-to-day living would change that fact. Burden? No. Labor of love? That's probably a much more apt description.
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Post by matisse on Aug 21, 2012 23:22:08 GMT -5
Selfish? Come now, men. This can't be how you really feel. Now I'm not saying this to belittle or invalidate your feelings, but I have to echo what many of the females are saying here. We are perfectly capable of making our own decisions and don't need anyone to "spare us". Love is love and no amount of extra effort in day-to-day living would change that fact. Burden? No. Labor of love? That's probably a much more apt description. To the "burden" part, while I get where this comes from, as an adult woman, I find this thinking pretty patronizing. I`m a big girl and decide for myself what I want in my live and what I can handle and what not, thank you very much. I would be interested to know if you have been in long term relationships with wheelers. I would not be surprised to hear much more tempered feelings on this issue from ABs (whether men or women, dev or not) in 5+ year relationships with wheelers. I don't think the burden question/concern is patronizing at all. I think it's quite realistic and I suspect that over the course of many years, there are many times when thoughts of "burden" surface in the mind of an AB partner. I have seen this to be particularly true for progressive conditions, but SCI also becomes a bit of a progressive condition when you start to really get old. It might take longer for thoughts of burden to surface in the mind of a dev, and a dev would likely deal with these thoughts a lot better than a non-dev. But the shit hits the fan with wheelers more often, and far more suddenly, than the regular population. It's difficult, and completely understandable, to react to these events as if they are a burden, because that's what they are. The question for me is not whether an AB partner has these feelings, but how the feelings are dealt with and how they manifest themselves. If my wife had the attitude that she was somehow doing me a favor by dealing with my issues, and that I should recognize this as an imbalance in the give/take of our relationship, I would tell her not to let the door hit her ass on the way out.........I think she kind of senses that attitude in me, but ironically, rather than being a problem, it somehow increases her respect for me.
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thatgimpyguy
Junior Member
Posts: 82
Relationship Status: Single
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Post by thatgimpyguy on Aug 21, 2012 23:56:35 GMT -5
matisse: I think you hit the nail on the head. It's not a matter of not feeling we're sparing you, it's more of like you said, looking down the line. Also, I think the opinions and feelings from wheelers are coming from their feelings toward non devs mostly. That's not to say devs wouldn't be included, but I think it stems mostly from dealings with non devs. And my own opinion is constantly evolving. I'm assuming, and other wheelers can say to the contrary, but I'm assuming most born wheelers have never been told by society that they're an appealing piece of man meat to a foxy lady. That we fit the traditional mold of desire. Or even given the option of considering legitimate relationships. And this isn't meant to engage in a pity party or anything, it's just I think, for so many, that because we've been told, literally or through action, that relationships are off the table, that to hear otherwise is like hearing suddenly that you're a dolphin or have green skin. For me, if I'm being honest, I was unaware of devs until recently, so it's like, you go from no no no your whole life to suddenly yes, it's a bit of an adjustment and like I said, my opinion is constantly evolving.
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Post by janewheeler on Aug 22, 2012 0:50:39 GMT -5
It may seem simplistic to say so, but I firmly believe that one's attitude makes a big difference here. Before you say, "Thank you SO MUCH for that ENLIGHTENING SUGGESTION," I'm speaking of AB people as well. My most successful relationships have come when I wasn't expecting them (e.g., three weeks after splitting with my ex-husband), but succeeded because I was open to them.
On the flip side, I have friends who fail over and over again at dating because... well, who knows. But they're so rigid in their expectations, or at the very least the expectation that people don't like them because they're fat, or aren't interesting, or whatever. That's BS. It CERTAINLY couldn't be their charming personalities!
In no way am I trying to be a Pollyanna. I have several family friends who have had very tough times trying to express their needs in a way that moves past their visible limitations. I know how hard it is to be told that X or Y isn't "for you." But it's different from being told "If you really want to, you could get out of that chair!" or some other bright and cheery platitude.
You might not be able to change what you can do physically, but you already have the foundation for showing someone who and what you are. You just have to come at it from the right place. Yes, I admit, you'll probably have a tougher time than most finding that place. But don't let ANYBODY tell you that you can't or don't deserve love, affection or companionship.
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Post by MarineAmp on Aug 22, 2012 5:02:50 GMT -5
I appreciate what both sides are saying, I'm not sure that I felt selfish for wanting a relationship, but at times while being in a relationship I have felt like an ass in situations. What comes to my mind at the moment is going on a road trip and my pregnant wife is out in 100 plus degree weather pumping gas while I sit in the car. I have a problem with this because I would rather her be relaxing or just doing what she needs to do like using the restroom while I take care of it. Secondly I hate what other people at the gas station are probably thinking seeing this event unfold and watching my 8 month pregnant wife pump gas while I sit in the car. I know it is just easier for her to not have to also lift my wheelchair out of the back of my vehicle to have me do it. Another situation that bugged me the other day was going to and leaving the hospital when we went to a birthing class. All the other couples just got to hop out of their cars, husbands carrying whatever the wife was wanting to bring to the class and my wife is once again lifting my chair in and out of the car. We've already had the discussion where she has told me she doesn't mind doing so, and to quote her from earlier It's something that I am happy to do as a dev because in return I get the benefit of being with the type of guy who feels right to me. I do realize her feelings on the subject, and it does help in a lot of scenarios, but it doesn't alleviate every situation that comes up. Z28 it was a noble attempt at trying to compare what you do with a mother and her children. I am really excited to be a dad, but I'm pretty sure that I'm going to be glad to be done with diapers, and needing a stroller and just welcoming the times that our son will be growing more and more independent from all the basic needs a newborn requires. There is just going to be stuff that isn't easy to get over, but with that being said, it is much easier dealing with a lot of these issues because of being in a relationship with a dev.
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Post by devogirl on Aug 22, 2012 7:41:09 GMT -5
I couldn’t help thinking about some of the relationships I’ve been in where I have been the one who had to wait for what seemed like hours (and sometimes were) before we could go out – or even to bed – because she ‘just had to do her face’ or ‘powder her nose’ or whatever else women do for a good portion of their waking hours in the bathroom. Ha! This is so true. I dated a quad, and he complained about how it took him 30 minutes to get dressed, and I was like, what? That's quick! I usually take an hour, and I don't even wear makeup, WTF, I know, I'm ridiculously slow. But he was pissed because before his accident he would just throw on his clothes and be ready in 5 minutes. But while I was dating him, the things he thought were burdensome and the things that really did get to me and ultimately killed the relationship were completely different. Taking longer to do things, or not being able to go certain places, whatever, I didn't mind. Even the things that were really horrible and mortifying to him, like the time he shit his pants in public, it didn't make me love him less or want to get out of the relationship. No, what killed the relationship was his depression and suicidal tendencies that he buried under heavy drinking and took out on me. The real problem was mental, not physical. Like the other women have said, we devs tend to think helping as part of being with a disabled guy, it's ok with us, even a turn on sometimes, for instance to handle his chair. And helping isn't necessarily a power thing, getting off on him not being able to do something, or a condescending favor. Often, like Emma said, it's just that we like being the one he chooses to have around to do those things. It's a sign of intimacy. But I have heard this worry about being a "burden" from my AB husband as well in moments of stress. I wonder if it's more a guy thing, feeling like you always have to be independent and in charge, and if you aren't, then you're not fit to be in a relationship. From my perspective, it's so frustrating to be told by someone you love that he thinks he would be a burden to you. Let me decide!
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Post by BA on Aug 22, 2012 8:11:20 GMT -5
Omg, Devogirl you are so right! The ONLY thing that has ever killed my r'ship with a disabled guy (in fact ANY guy) has been emotional stuff (depression, anger, massive insecurity and/or substance abuse). Sometimes I wonder if the "burden" mindset could be a defense against having that close of a relationship and risking the scary feelings that come along with it? Push them away before they get too close? Mostly done without even realizing it. (yeah, my psych background is talking).
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Post by nordic on Aug 22, 2012 8:17:53 GMT -5
Selfish? Come now, men. This can't be how you really feel. Now I'm not saying this to belittle or invalidate your feelings, but I have to echo what many of the females are saying here. We are perfectly capable of making our own decisions and don't need anyone to "spare us". Love is love and no amount of extra effort in day-to-day living would change that fact. Burden? No. Labor of love? That's probably a much more apt description. To the "burden" part, while I get where this comes from, as an adult woman, I find this thinking pretty patronizing. I`m a big girl and decide for myself what I want in my live and what I can handle and what not, thank you very much. I would be interested to know if you have been in long term relationships with wheelers. I would not be surprised to hear much more tempered feelings on this issue from ABs (whether men or women, dev or not) in 5+ year relationships with wheelers. I'm wondering the same thing. It's like having fallen in love recently and it feels like you will never ever find a single flaw on your partner and if you do, you will just accept it - but this feeling fades, sooner or later, with everyone. Just because on the long run, you WILL be annoyed by stuff. And then is the time where you consciously decide on whether you really want to live with your partner (with all their flaws) or not. Now if you take someone who is disabled, this person will automatically start depending on his partner. Thus it is not that easy to just realize after a few years it was not the right thing in the end and break up. A wheeler can quite literally not just walk away. Let's say so far family always helped him and all of a sudden he has a partner helping him, moving to a different city together, ... what if it doesn't work out in the end? Also the partner will feel responsible. I have seen it in my own family, with myself and my mother (yes, it was a huge relieve for her when I finally moved out, no matter how much she loves me) or also with my grandmother who took care of my grandfather after he had a stroke. When she finally decided to let him move to a residential care home the whole family was like "finally!" - not because there is anything wrong with him but because the responsibility and hard work required was wearing her out so much that she was literally crying all the time. So, Z's comparison works just as well to prove a disability can in fact be a burden. Just to emphasize here, I never felt selfish about wanting a relationship - but I'm just trying to point out where it comes from and what might be someone's reasons to not get into a relationship. Nevertheless my suggestion is still to first talk about it, make sure you both understand the consequences and then give it a try. Hearing people considering themselves not to be "eligable" for a relationship is disturbing, by the way. There are also non-devotee people who happen to fall for a disabled guy due to his charm, intellect or whatever not.
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Post by BA on Aug 22, 2012 8:21:18 GMT -5
I have been in a 5+ year relationship with a disabled guy which parted (amicalbly) over issues regarding raising children (I wanted to. He did not). I am sure that what you don't want to hear is that he was a para and that he was reasonably independent. In terms of a disability that requires extensive assistance you point is well taken, Nordic. There will be fewer partners available but they are out there. Equally important is that you do not make your romantic partner your primary caregiver for all things.
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Post by ~Z28gal~ on Aug 22, 2012 10:50:10 GMT -5
I was really struck by what marineamp said about the gas station - my bf and I have had the exact same conversation. I've noticed that those burden conversations tend to come up in my relationship if something happens that makes my bf publicly appear to be a burden - at the gas station, at my parent's house where I helped push him back uphill from the boathouse (that one really bothered him), etc. If it's just the two of us, it's a non-issue. I don't really know what to think about that, just thought I'd throw it out there.
Can you guys think of anything else I can say that would really get through regarding this selfish/burden thought process?
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vancityippy
Full Member
Posts: 209
Gender: Female
Dev Status: Devotee
Relationship Status: Married/Domestic partnership
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Post by vancityippy on Aug 23, 2012 13:58:10 GMT -5
I feel the same way you do about helping. It's not a burden at all! It's something that I am happy to do as a dev because in return I get the benefit of being with the type of guy who feels right to me. Maybe I am lucky because I am okay with the amount of helping that is needed by the type of guy I am attracted to. I had a pretty solid/ formed opinion on this thread when I started it...and Emma, your quote summed it up. I've had friends say..."But, what if you're with a disabled guy and you can't go traveling...what if he can't change the light bulbs for you or...pump the gas" and what I say is...I like what I like and I can't help it. And what I like works for me. Weather or not challenges will come up in the future is something no one can control...in any relationship. Like with any relationship, any girl who likes a guy (who happens to have a disability) is going to be pretty happy at first to do anything with the guy she's into. Weather you take the stairs or the elevator isn't a big deal...and if that relationship goes well, as long as both people in the relationship are open/ honest about what the need/ can handle...I think the majority of the "helping" that goes on is not so much helping, as it is two people interacting in a dynamic with one another, supporting and balancing each other out in emotional, physical and financial ways. Matisse/ oregonchris/ Nordic/ thatgimpyguy Your posts bring up a valid point and I know what you're saying. I am thinking about a reality that I know well, from a caregiver perspective. I have worked as a care giver for a number of people with SCI and fairly progressed MS and there is no doubt that problems that come up are a "burden" to both parties in a couple. Pressure sores, chronic pain and progressively diminished abilities being some of the most devastating examples (among many other possible things) that I've seen. I've seen pressure sores take away both couples freedom (as one person many be restricted to being in bed most or all of the time). And with MS I've seen people continue to require more and more support. These things and chronic pain suck energy from both halves of a couple and have social, psychological and financial repercussions. In the situations, I don't see the AB partner skipping lightly around with a smile on their face as if there totally unphased by these challenges...But I do see them work together as a team, along with other support to make decisions and manage the situation in a way that considers both partners. I see both parties deal with it as it comes, because it's necessary to do so...there isn't an option...for either person. This brings me back to Emmas quote. The AB partner in these relationships is fulfilled by there partner despite these challenges. I see certain personality characteristics in both the AB partner and the partner with a disability that gets them through these times...just as any two people that make it through stuff. Let's remember that AB bodied people carry baggage and encounter circumstances (Illness, family troubles, acquiring disability...)that can pop up throughout the duration of a relationship...So no couple is safe from potential burdens along the way.
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Post by matisse on Aug 23, 2012 15:03:23 GMT -5
I was really struck by what marineamp said about the gas station - my bf and I have had the exact same conversation. I've noticed that those burden conversations tend to come up in my relationship if something happens that makes my bf publicly appear to be a burden Oh, there's definitely a connection there. As DG points out, part of what drives this is our expected societal roles as guys. I don't like it when people look at my wife and think that she's some sort of saint for being with me. And when we're out with the kids, I am sure people think "oh my god, she has to handle all of those kids, and HIM too." Quite the contrast to when I am out by myself with the kids, in which case I am some sort of inspiring superstar.
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Deleted
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Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2012 16:26:31 GMT -5
I don't know how to quote yet, but I think Van City said this, "Let's remember that AB bodied people carry baggage and encounter circumstances (Illness, family troubles, acquiring disability...)that can pop up throughout the duration of a relationship...So no couple is safe from potential burdens along the way." I totally agree with this.
Basically, when you love someone, you don't mind helping them with whatever. Having never been with a wheeler, I'm not sure what help would be required but I'd be willing as long as that help was wanted. I'd relish any time with my true love, whether it's a month or five years.
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