New member saying hello

[obscure]

Personally, Creative-E, I think most peoples' aversion towards lying comes because they feel stupid at being naive enough at having been conned so well. What other possible explanation could there be for trying to deny someone the right to live as they see fitting and proper for themselves? It certainly doesn't harm you in any way. If nothing else, I think it actually helps the disabled community to some degree.

A lot of you want to lecture us as though we know nothing about what it truly means to have a disability. While it's true that we haven't experienced it firsthand for ourselves, it isn't true that we think it's all "fun and games and wheeling around." Had any of you taken the time to read Claire's beautifully composed story on the site that she linked in her introduction post, you would see that she had many people close to her who were themselves disabled, and she experienced firsthand a family member dying young as a result of his disability. I myself while not having been exposed to many people with disabilities in real life do still have the knowledge of many of the negatives that go along with it. Sure, I haven't experienced them for myself. That's an opportunity that I can only dream of. But yes, I am willing to take the good with the bad. That's just a fact of life.

You can't make this go away by trying to convince us that being paralyzed isn't all that it's cracked up to be. We know that.

I think you all also need to realize that this differs from devoteeism in a very profound way. I wouldn't dare speak for all wannabes, but in my personal experience and many of the experiences I have read, it is important to note that this isn't sexual at all. I'm not "getting off" at the idea of being in a chair. There's not a fetish aspect to it. It is, quite simply, who I feel I was meant to be.

[E]

obscure said:

Right, because that "light of exposure" was handled really well by the individuals in this forum.

Homosexuality wasn't very well received in the world at first, either, but you see a growing acceptance occuring.

Personally, you'll notice I've never said I have a problem with BIID. I don't. I definitely don't have a problem with people with BIID. From the beginning, I've said I have a problem with dishonesty. I don't think one MUST be tied to the other, but maybe you do, and that might be the source of your defensiveness. I'm sure you come at this with the mindset that people will be offended and find you weird. I don't blame you.

In my prior posts, you won't see me suggest therapy. I don't think therapy exists that can help you. I don't believe there's a drug regimen for you. I don't think enough is known about BIID for there to be effective treatment. I hope, in the future, as more is learned, something can be done.

You also won't ever hear me say, "You're not a gimp. You don't know what it's like. If you knew, you would change your mind." I just know that's not true. I know you have all the facts. I guarantee you know more about SCI than I do. There's no way you can be "talked out of" feeling the way you do. You just do. You want it to stop, but you can't. I get that.

All I'm saying, and this is the crux of everything I've written in this thread, is that lying is wrong. That's it. Lying is wrong no matter why you do it. This is something we're taught since we learn to speak. Just like stealing is always wrong. If a kleptomaniac steals, I understand WHY he does it and I have compassion for his plight, but that doesn't make his stealing any less of a crime. Can I forgive him? Absolutely. Will I try to help him? If help exists, definitely.

You're extremely intelligent, very articulate, and clearly open-minded. I appreciate you not resorting to petty snipes on me as we've talked. I hope you know it's not BIID I'm displeased with. And, more importantly, I hope you realize that I certainly have nothing but respect for you as a person.

[E]

FWIW, Obscure, I began writing my last post before I saw your last one, but some of the things you mentioned are still addressed...

[obscure]

I really hope you didn't take anything I said as a "petty snipe." I'll readily admit that I can be rather crass, but certainly none of it was aimed towards you in this instance. I've seen nothing from you but a willingness to engage yourself in dialogue with the hopes of understanding the situation better. I certainly wasn't referring to you when I made reference to the number of people who have shown displeasure at something that took nothing but extreme courage and hope to admit.

I appreciate your willingness to engage me in a discussion, and I really don't want you to feel run off. I debate often to the point of argument, and I have been known to fight a little bit boldly, but I have absolutely nothing but respect for anyone who is open to exploring issues and thoughts with me.

Just so we're at a better level of understanding one another, your personal life philosophy obviously differs from mine. That's great, but it makes it difficult to come to any sort of a resolution. Frankly, I LIKE running around in circles. I LOVE debating what cannot be resolved. Some people find it meaningless and a waste of time, and so few humor me and do it. Basically, though, it seems where we differ is on our ideas of right and wrong.

I don't believe there's any such thing as a true moral objective in the world. Issues of right and wrong, truth and falshood are all matters of personal opinion. They're all grey. There is no black and white. I object to the statement "lying is wrong" because there's so much to take into account that I don't feel anyone has the right to make such a bold statement.

[Triassic]

Well, my geuss is that E has some big issue with 'lying' as a result of personal reasons that have more to do with him than anything else...

Lying is never a positive act-unless it's done to avoid hurt feelings maybe. But there are degrees. What if someone asks me something that is none of their business? Am I obligated to tell the truth, like Spock? Yes, I could tell them it isnt there business, but that may not be politic. Might do to have a plausible story for such an occasionl; like say; 'yes, i was paralyzed in a car crash 5 yearsago'.

[wannabesgoaway]

Pretenders as a disability itself? Give me a fucking break. Pretenders/wannabes are parasites. They take our handicapped parking spots. They use our bathroom stalls. They take our spots at movie theaters and restaurants. All so they can selfishly indulge a lie.

You think you know what it's like to be disabled just because you read some books? You don't know shit. Try shitting your pants at the mall. Try getting stranded because your ramp broke. Try suddenly landing in the hospital because of a sore on your ass. Try not being able to fall asleep because you are in so much pain.

Oh, I forgot. You're pretending to be a low incomplete para with bowel control and full use of your hands, and no pain. We didn't get to custom design our disability.

And the effect on relationships and body image, you have no idea. Our bellies get fat, our faces sometimes look bloated, no matter what we do. All you have to to is, for once, PUT DOWN THE FUCKING COOKIE. Better yet, get your fat ass out of your pretend chair and haul your shithole back in to obscurity where you belong.

[obscure]

I can't justify a response to someone who doesn't even have the courage to face what has until this point been an intelligent, thoughtful, informative give-and-take discussion with some sense of personal integrity. Show your face, and maybe I'll respond to you. Better yet, read back over the posts that have already been made and try to open that tiny little pea brain residing in the nearly empty space between your wax-filled ears.

[Claire]

creativee said:

From the beginning, I've said I have a problem with dishonesty. I don't think one MUST be tied to the other, but maybe you do, and that might be the source of your defensiveness. I'm sure you come at this with the mindset that people will be offended and find you weird. I don't blame you.

Creative-E, in an earlier post than the one I'm quoting you suggest being open and honest about having BIID to the people around me and thus educating people about BIID and avoid the evil of having to lie.

In the quote above you've hit upon why that's so hard to do, even if it's a good idea in theory. I know how people react to BIID. It's a mental illness, but it's so rare, and so newly discovered, and so bizarre, that those who understand and are sympathetic are in the vast minority. The rest find it sick, twisted, evil, an attempt to milk the system by fraud or a bid for better parking spaces.

I would love to be superwoman and stand up for what I believe and live my life as a pretender openly and honestly to everyone around me, but frankly I don't have the courage to face this with all of my friends, family members and acquaintances every day of my life. It's too overwhelming, too frightening, and I've seen firsthand too often the worst of the reactions that pretenders can get, and I have way too much to lose.

Our friend "wannabesgoaway" here is a perfect example of why it scares the hell out of me to contemplate openly pretending in my daily real life. Need I say more?

To "wannabesgoaway", why is it so hard to believe that a mental illness such as Body Integrity Identity Disorder can exist? There are so many other strange mental conditions, why not that one?

[Pony]

jocker said:

claire said:

The thing is, if you accept BIID as a valid mental illness, then how is someone's psychological need to wheel less valid than someone's physical need to wheel? Is it better, more real, more valid, more honest, to be physically disabled than mentally disabled? If you deny a BIID sufferer the right to pretend, you're imposing a hierarchy of disability in which certain disabilities are better and more deserving than others. And, you're denying people with certain disabilities the only known therapy available. It would be nice if we could pretend in the open without having to lie, but the world isn't ready for that, is it?

I don't think there is a hierarchy of disability imposed. The difficulty that I think most physically disabled persons' have is not being able to wrap their minds around the reasons why a person wants to put themselves in the same position?

Being a quad/para is not just not having your ability to walk taken away. It's not just about having your legs bound and wheeling in a chair. It's what comes along with it. Speaking from my own experience. You're body basically goes into shock when one is first injured... nothing works... and by nothing I mean organs, limbs, mind. Having your legs not being able to work is almost the easy part to deal with, when you need help with just the minuscule of tasks, weather it be eating, getting in/out of bed or going to the bathroom. You basically must be helped with everything. The work that is achieved in gaining the independence to do those things on your own or at least as many things that you can, is what makes a physically challenged person proud.

I am not trying to say the psychological disability that a pretender/wannabe has is stronger than physical disability. How do you actually measure that? And I'm not here to discount it. I do though want to try to advance the discourse of those of us who are physically disabled. By doing so I think the wannabe pretender may be able to better understand the disability that they are trying to emulate. As well as understand any ill feelings that some may have toward a wannabe/pretender. I hope this helps.

Jocker, you say things very well. I was thinking the same things as i was reading this thread. There's sooooo much more reality that pretenders can ever know...the loss of movement is only a fraction of the disability as a whole. I'm not dissing wannabes. If that's your thing, i can only try to understand, but the reality runs much deeper, as the guest-poster spelled out in crude, harsh fashion.

However, the fact is, being paralyzed comes with a HEAVY price, and the guest pointed out just a few of the horrible things that can happened, and have happened. And there is no customizing your disability. Being paralyzed can get very crude, harsh and ugly real fucking fast, and while i'm not putting down wannabes in any way, being paralyzed, especially a c5c6 SCI, comes with a million other embarrassments and hardships that can't be emulated. Be careful what you wish for....what you SEE is only a small part of it!!

[jenny]

E and Triassic, you guys are great.

For those guys who are pissed at the whole thing, think about this regards wannabes - you all have what the other wants.

Ain't life a kick in the head?

[jenny]

Oh - and I don't know pretenders who take your parking spaces. In fact, I know pretenders who are absolutely against taking parking spaces. Life for most wannabe/pretenders is pre-ADA. Isn't that fun?

[Cake]

"Mom, I think I'm gay."
"You're what?!"
"I'm a homosexual."
"Oh my god, son, do you even know what you are saying?"
"Yes, I think so. I fell for this man, I love him. I wanna move in with him."
"Ok now, listen to me. DON'T do that. You remember uncle Charly? Remember what they did to him, how they tortured him? They hunted him. Out of town. Don't you remember how he lost all his friends, his job, his future? Look at him now, he's a mess."
"I know."
"Do you want to experience the same? Do you really want this? Think again. You have no idea what you're about to get yourself into. THIS will ruin your life!"
"But Mom, what should I do? I love him. I wanna be with him. I never felt like this when I was with Katie."
"You're sick, you know that?"
"Maybe I am. Do you think I chose these feelings? I'd LOVE to be like everyone else!"
"Then do so!!"
"Um.... I can't?"
"You only say this because you don't know what it means to be hated by everyone. You love your life, right? So do the right thing now. Marry Katie, buy the blue house on Lilac Lane, and raise beautiful children. It's your choice! Don't you see? You can have a perfect life, it's right there, just take it. Be happy, dammit!!!"
"Mom, that life can't make me happy."
"Oh and living as an outsider for the rest of your life can?"
"I don't know."
"So why the f*ck are you doing this?"
"..."

[wannabesgoaway]

obscure said:

an intelligent, thoughtful, informative give-and-take discussion with some sense of personal integrity

You have not earned an intelligent discourse. Take the fucking cookie out of your fat mouth, get in your pretend wheelchair, go to your friends house, shit in your pants, and ask them to help you clean up. Then maybe you have earned a little something. And you will also have a better idea of who your real friends are.

[jenny]

Nor have you. Don't be such a bloody coward.

[wannabesgoaway]

claire said:

why is it so hard to believe that a mental illness such as Body Integrity Identity Disorder can exist?

I don't care if it exists or not. It is your choice to take our spots, stalls, goodwill, and now even our messageboards. Why are you here? Go away.