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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2019 14:27:23 GMT -5
I think I’ve posted on here before about how my family haven’t been very supportive of my relationship with my pwd partner, but my father is visiting over Christmas and today managed a new depth of intolerance. He actually said “I know you like those sort of people but you need to find a normal boyfriend “ WTF !!!! Actually dad, my 3 year relationship is super rocky right now, so you may get your wish....but not for the reasons you think 🤬🤬🤬
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Post by myrrh on Dec 26, 2019 14:52:31 GMT -5
Wow, what a way to demean you and your boyfriend in one ugly swoop. I'm sorry you have to deal with that, it's unabashed bigotry and deserves nothing but a swift kick out the door.
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Post by Amee on Dec 26, 2019 15:51:31 GMT -5
So sorry to hear that @delight! My father has strong opinions about absolutely everything and no restraint whatsoever in voicing them, so I feel you! I can't know for sure how he would react if I were to one day introduce a PWD boyfriend to him, but it's definitely something I'd be quite anxious about. I agree with myrrh that behaviour like that deserves a prompt kick out the door. If you feel like doing that, I say go for it! But for me personally, I know that it wouldn't be that easy. I love my father. Despite not agreeing with many of his opinions and being very critical of his personal flaws, I know he has always been a loving and - in his way - supportive father. Sure, he has his faults and I'm not making excuses for them (I actually get into heated fights with him a lot). But at the end of the day, I value having a good relationship with both my parents. I don't know what your relationship with your father is like, but I know that for me, it's difficult when people I love disapprove of aspects of my life. I can tell myself all day that he has no business having an opinion about xy, but coming from my father, it still hurts. What I try to do - what I've tried to do for the past few years - is to build a little bit of healthy emotional distance between myself and my father's opinions on absolutley everything. I try to step back from the situation and kind of view it from "outside" (if that makes any sense), with emotional distance. I try to look at his behaviour with empathy but without having to agree with it or condoning it in any way. I try to understand his worldview and his emotional state. I know he only wants the best for his daughter and within his worldview (which I do not share) that includes trying to impose his opinions about what I should and shouldn't do with my life on me. Because he thinks he knows best. I try not to take that personally. And I tell him that. I tell him that I love him, that I know he only wants the best for me and that I understand where he is coming from. But that I have some major disagreements with him, that I understand myself better than he does and so know better what's best for myself than he does. I tell him that I'm glad for everything he taught me and that I consider the things he taught me in my decisions, but that they are my decisions about my own life and they are no longer any of his business. And then I tell him that if he cannot respect my decisions and keeps showing me his disapproval, I will withdraw more and more in our relationship and will become more distant to protect myself emotionally. Not because I don't love him, but because his disapproval is painful and unjustified and I will not submit myself to it. And then I tell him that I hope that won't happen, because I really love him and want to sustain our good relationship. Not trying to give you any advice here - I'm still young and trying to figure out what my "adult" relationship with my parents should look like Just wanted to share how I try to deal with an intolerant and dominant father, who I love dearly anyway. Of course, I also don't know, if I'd be able to keep my cool that way, if my father said anything like what you described. P.S.: Of course, I'd first try to talk some sense into him and combat some of his bigoted views, but I'm assuming you've tried that in the past anyway, since you've been with your partner for three years.
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Post by linda on Dec 26, 2019 16:02:19 GMT -5
So sorry to hear that, @delight, for both, your father‘s behavior and struggling with the relationship. Great advice, Amee. Good luck to everyone who faces this kind of difficult situation.
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Post by missparkle on Dec 26, 2019 16:23:46 GMT -5
Well, I think you have to be aware it is your father. All the comments and advises that we are often furious about, come from best intentions. He loves you, he is worried about you, he cares for you and he wants the best for you. And by his opinion it is not the best. You have to observe things from his point of view. Your father is not dev and "normal" people can't wrap their mind around the idea why you deliberately choose "broken". I have a fried, who is wheeler for 30 years, who is very successful, professionally and also in Paralympics and he is at good place in his life. But he says if he would have a daughter, he would want "better for her" than a wheeler. I also completely understand that for us devs, there isn't anything better! In that sense, you and your father will never understand each other. He feels it is his parental duty to give you that advice and you shouldn't be angry at him about it. But you shouldn't also allow it to hurt you, as Amee suggests, you have to make emotional barrier within yourself. With time, parents come to peace with our choices when they see that makes us happy. That is all they want.
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Post by robbb on Dec 26, 2019 16:45:04 GMT -5
Sorry you had to hear that from your father. As others have said I'm sure his comments come from the right place but in truth your choice of partner is none of his business and the content of that comment is inappropriate in this day and age.
I'm curious when he said "I know you like those sort of people" does he know you are a dev?
I hope you can get your relationship back on track again.
R.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2019 16:57:14 GMT -5
Sorry you had to hear that from your father. As others have said I'm sure his comments come from the right place but in truth your choice of partner is none of his business and the content of that comment is inappropriate in this day and age. I'm curious when he said "I know you like those sort of people" does he know you are a dev? I hope you can get your relationship back on track again. R. Firstly thanks to everyone for support and advice. It’s very difficult, I’m aware that my father is a very different generation and assumes that men are meant to be head of the family and to work, support them. Very different to the way most people think now, but regardless of that a disability doesn’t stop you supporting your family or working. robbb I have no idea why he said that, I’ve been careful not to even suggest that I’m a dev, but I assume he has connected a few dots, I have several friends who are pwd and obviously my boyfriend. I know my father loves me, and in his odd way is trying to look out for me....it’s been a few days of having to hold my tongue, walk out of the room a few times and count to a thousand but it just brought home how a lot of people see disability in such a negative way.
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Post by Amee on Dec 26, 2019 17:20:05 GMT -5
@delight I'm sorry, believe me, I know how that feels! They love us and they're trying to look out for us... but at the same time drive us mad with their impossible behaviour. My father's views and behaviour sometimes make me want to hit my head against a wall. Biting my tongue, walking out of the room... Sometimes I just leave the house and take a walk, when I can't take it anymore. (Just to give you an idea: He sometimes only half-jokingly says that all our trouble started when we (as a society) allowed women to learn how to read. He'll act like it's a joke, but at the same time doesn't make a huge secret out of it, that in it's core he truly believes this.) I've found it's also really helpful to have someone you can let off steam with. I can often do this with my mother: We'll bitch about him for an hour, getting all worked up and just letting it all out. And then at the end we'll both agree that despite all his flaws, we're still pretty glad we have him and it could be so much worse I have to say, though, I'm actually really, really curious how my father would react to a PWD partner. It's something I really have a hard time pre-estimating. I could really see it going both ways...
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Post by devogirl on Dec 26, 2019 21:03:28 GMT -5
Ugh, family is the worst! I'm sorry you have to endure that. I've been there too. I disagree with the idea that you have to always put up with bullshit from your parents because they supposedly mean well. No. The people who love you should treat you with kindness and compassion, not insults and abuse veiled as loving concern. You are well within your rights to shut that right down. You can always try to shame them into confronting their prejudice head on. Something like, "What do you mean by normal?" or even "What an unkind thing to say, why would you say that?" Good luck staying calm in the moment, I have never managed that myself.
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manicpixiememegirl
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Gender: Female
Dev Status: Devotee
Relationship Status: Single
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Post by manicpixiememegirl on Dec 26, 2019 21:47:21 GMT -5
Oof that is rough. I'm sorry you had to deal with that. Has he been made aware of how hurtful he is being?
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Post by Amee on Dec 27, 2019 3:44:06 GMT -5
Ugh, family is the worst! I'm sorry you have to endure that. I've been there too. I disagree with the idea that you have to always put up with bullshit from your parents because they supposedly mean well. No. The people who love you should treat you with kindness and compassion, not insults and abuse veiled as loving concern. You are well within your rights to shut that right down. You can always try to shame them into confronting their prejudice head on. Something like, "What do you mean by normal?" or even "What an unkind thing to say, why would you say that?" Good luck staying calm in the moment, I have never managed that myself. I don't disagree with that at all. I think anyone is well within their rights both to shut it down and to, as myrrh said kick them out the door. I was talking about how I personally deal with it, when I cannot shut it down. As I've said, I've never been in the situation having to "defend" a PWD partner, but with the disagreements I have with my father, I'm way past the point of making him confront his prejudice. I've had hours and hours and hours (and hours) of discussions with him over the years, both heated ones and ones, where I've kept my calm. I know his worldview, his opinions and his way of arguing so well, that I can very often anticipate exactly what he is going to say - that has actually on occasion become quite amusing to both of us. Very, very rarely these discussions end with either one of us having our mind changed a little bit. Usually, it ends with one of us giving up from exhaustion and neither having our minds changed. And what do you do then? I have on occasion actually gone through with withdrawing a little from my relationship with my father - like visiting less often (that's easy for me, as I visit my parents almost every weekend). But I always try to keep the lines of communication open and I do it with the goal of finding a way to sustain a good, loving relationship with him despite our disagreements. And I really didn't mean what I said as adivce, since I don't know the history and people of the situation @delight is in. But I'm really curious devogirl, how did these discussions with your family go? What did they argue and were you ever successful? Again, it's ironically a bit hard for me to anticipate how my father would react to a PWD partner, but if he did react badly, I know exactly what he would say to the questions you've suggested. Those wouldn't sway him in the least And @delight do you ever argue about it with your father/family?
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Post by missparkle on Dec 27, 2019 5:29:38 GMT -5
For me, personally it is not "putting up with bullshit", but on the contrary, it is the way of making it the least painful and harmful for me.
Not only in child-parent relationship, but in many other interactions with people there is a point where you realize that your opinions are so different that you will never come to a consensus. Therefore, it is absolutely pointless continuing the discussion, which is leading nowhere, it is only waste of time, energy and nerves. In similar scenarios I simply "walk away", being it my father, my friend or barely known person. It is simply not worthy being militant about something, when from the start you are condemned to fail.
I always compare it to argue between highly religious person and atheist. Two could argue whole lifetime and would never get any closer to each other's point of view. Fighting hard against opposed opinion you give it more importance and power over you than it actually deserves.
In that sense, I would always rather be happy than be right.
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Post by devogirl on Dec 27, 2019 7:37:31 GMT -5
But I'm really curious devogirl , how did these discussions with your family go? What did they argue and were you ever successful?
Super terrible! I wrote about this in Devo Diary but after I started seeing PWD #2 my mom lost her mind and started screaming at me about how angry she was and I screamed right back. So there was no attempt at rational conversation on either side. I eventually realized that my mom has a serious phobia of PWDs that goes way beyond the usual ignorance/pity. I just decided after that never to tell her anything about my dating life ever again. Luckily for her, I married an AB guy although if I had met the right PWD I would not have let her stop me.
Anyway to be clear I was not talking about changing anyone's mind, but more putting them on notice that their bigoted opinions are not ok and you are not going to participate in that conversation. I think of it the way Dan Savage counsels gay adults to deal with homophobic parents--you can choose to cling to your homophobia, whatever, I'm not going to argue about it with you, but the social cost of that choice will be that you don't get to have a relationship with me. That's basically what I did with my mom. Since she couldn't be reasonable, she didn't get to share that part of my life with me. I only talked with her about work/daily life/entertainment, anything about my dating life was strictly off limits.
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Post by myrrh on Dec 27, 2019 11:32:04 GMT -5
Anyway to be clear I was not talking about changing anyone's mind, but more putting them on notice that their bigoted opinions are not ok and you are not going to participate in that conversation. I think of it the way Dan Savage counsels gay adults to deal with homophobic parents--you can choose to cling to your homophobia, whatever, I'm not going to argue about it with you, but the social cost of that choice will be that you don't get to have a relationship with me. Wonderfully put. I agree with this completely. My initial comment wasn't to imply that all contact should be severed. Rather, to say that a statement like that would effectively end the conversation for me and I would not longer play audience to their complaints. A bigot without a stage is just sad and alone. My longest and, by many metrics, most stable relationship was with a man from Mexico. He was one of the kindest and warmest people I've ever known. We were together several lovely years, and never once raised our voices at each other. My mom's hot take, upon learning that I had become involved, was that he would cheat on me ("Mexicans are known philanderer, myrrh") and was only with me to leech off my money. I told her that her opinions reflected very poorly upon her as a person, my decision remained unchanged.... and finally, she was no longer welcome to comment on my relationship in any way. Any comment from her would mean an immediate end to the present interaction. On the other side of that coin, that ex's family had similar qualms. His older brother took him aside and told him very sternly that white people don't raise their women right, so my ex would have to "break [me] like a horse." I remember one day, his mom called and asked him if I ever beat him. My ex was unconcerned by this behavior, sometimes even amused. I told him that it was very difficult for me, and he agreed that it was unfortunate. Not having a partner stand up for me, when his family was making completely unfair and bigoted comments, was extremely toxic and created a lot of unnecessary dysfunction. Standing up to family is hard, but not doing so is also very damaging, and it can erode a partner's trust and self esteem. The decision comes down to you, and what you feel is the most important. What's worth standing up for? Would you rather have a stronger bond with your partner, or not rock the family boat?
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Post by Amee on Dec 27, 2019 11:54:37 GMT -5
Anyway to be clear I was not talking about changing anyone's mind, but more putting them on notice that their bigoted opinions are not ok and you are not going to participate in that conversation. I think of it the way Dan Savage counsels gay adults to deal with homophobic parents--you can choose to cling to your homophobia, whatever, I'm not going to argue about it with you, but the social cost of that choice will be that you don't get to have a relationship with me. Not having a partner stand up for me, when his family was making completely unfair and bigoted comments, was extremely toxic and created a lot of unnecessary dysfunction. Standing up to family is hard, but not doing so is also very damaging, and it can erode a partner's trust and self esteem. The decision comes down to you, and what you feel is the most important. What's worth standing up for? Would you rather have a stronger bond with your partner, or not rock the family boat? Those are some very tough and valid questions myrrh ! I do hope I'll never be put to that particular test, as I value my family and my good relationship with my parents very much. But I agree with you, if a partner's family made comments like that about me, I would expect them to stand up for me and draw the consequences. I would hope I'd be able to do the same.
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