Help circumnavigate income and savings caps

[brinzerdecalli]

Hey all,
This is a continuation of a conversation that developed in another thread.

I am on SSI and have 24/7 nursing. I would love to become an entrepreneur, but I know of no ways to save money and use money without it counting as an asset.

A couple challenges are I have no family I trust to hold my money or take care of me if something goes wrong with my Medicaid eligibility, and no friends who feel comfortable with holding money like that [though I don't understand their reservation but respect it] or have the time to care for me as I fight for my independence. I live in Philadelphia PA, so they have some annoying links between nursing care and income caps that it seems some other states don't have.

I do have an ABLE account and know about ticket to work, 1619b and ITA. etc, but feel free to bring them up and I will explain why I don't think it is a safe option, or maybe it's something new that I have not heard of yet or didn't fully understand.

I'd love any suggestions and contacts you may have!

Thanks!

[darthoso]

You need to deep dive into the specifics of each program and how they interact. How are you Medicaid eligible? Does your nursing case have it's own income and asset requirements?

[jordy]

Working adults with disabilities are eligible for Medicaid buy in programs, but some states have a limit on that (only during duration of ticket to work program). I’m sure there is a way to extend it by making a case that shows you require those services and coverage to work. Unfortunately, I have no info on resources in PA... I did a quick search and found this: www.dhs.pa.gov/Services/Assistance/Pages/MA-for-Disabled-Workers.aspx

It looks like something that might help once you get things going. I would also see if Social Security could issue a ticket to work while you get things up and running so you don’t have any gaps in care or coverage and can keep Medicaid until everything else kicks in. There are definitely ways to get it done, but sometimes they have to involve extremely creative loopholes.

Even using the wording of certain laws in a letter to gain coverage can help immensely. I had my hearing aids covered because it was ruled a human right that someone should have access to their native language (I think one of the Bush administrations signed this). Since ASL is a language and not my native language, my doctor wrote to the state advocating for the coverage of my hearing aids as my native language is spoken English. Sometimes it’s about how you present your case and advocate... which can be absolutely exhausting and frustrating, but there are people who can help. Center for disability rights, independent living organizations, and a good case manager can usually help.

[brinzerdecalli]

Sept 11, 2020 15:00:33 GMT -5 darthoso said:

You need to deep dive into the specifics of each program and how they interact. How are you Medicaid eligible? Does your nursing case have it's own income and asset requirements?

My nursing was originally through a waiver called OBRA which is given to children who had the disability since birth, but 2 years ago it merged with Medicaid and is called Community Heath Choices. I've had Medicaid for 12 years and 8 of those it was my sole insurance and still is.

[brinzerdecalli]

Sept 11, 2020 16:48:59 GMT -5 jordy said:

Working adults with disabilities are eligible for Medicaid buy in programs, but some states have a limit on that (only during duration of ticket to work program). I’m sure there is a way to extend it by making a case that shows you require those services and coverage to work. Unfortunately, I have no info on resources in PA... I did a quick search and found this: www.dhs.pa.gov/Services/Assistance/Pages/MA-for-Disabled-Workers.aspx

It looks like something that might help once you get things going. I would also see if Social Security could issue a ticket to work while you get things up and running so you don’t have any gaps in care or coverage and can keep Medicaid until everything else kicks in. There are definitely ways to get it done, but sometimes they have to involve extremely creative loopholes.

Even using the wording of certain laws in a letter to gain coverage can help immensely. I had my hearing aids covered because it was ruled a human right that someone should have access to their native language (I think one of the Bush administrations signed this). Since ASL is a language and not my native language, my doctor wrote to the state advocating for the coverage of my hearing aids as my native language is spoken English. Sometimes it’s about how you present your case and advocate... which can be absolutely exhausting and frustrating, but there are people who can help. Center for disability rights, independent living organizations, and a good case manager can usually help.

My issue with this is I don't know if I can start it before I have any income, and the early part of building a business is not very profitable. Also It increases the asset limit to 10k total and income at 2k/month, but if a business was my asset I'd probably need to raise more like 50k. 

Ticket to work is weird because it bugs you about making money and if you don't make some it stops and if you make like 1.2k/mo. It stops too. It seemed like such a trap when I was researching it. Have you used it? How was your experience?

Definitely legal wording helps in hearings and appeals [that was how I got my JACO robotic arm], but I can't even get my eligibility denied in the first place since I truly live on my own with no support, and need 24/7 care to survive.

[jordy]

Yes, you can only earn below a certain amount for ticket to work. But if you stay within that range, you can keep all the coverage and benefits. Which for the 1st couple of steps of starting a business would be perfect. Ticket to work also applies to continuing education.
I haven’t explored ticket to work since I’m just jumping back into my field. I have the paperwork for it, though. Instead I’m doing the Medicaid buy in program so I can earn a bit more and still have what I need covered. My limit would be an extra $1,260 a month allowed in earnings. If I go over that, I would be screwed. I do know people who have worked within the range and kept disability as well as Medicaid. They were also putting in decent time at work, but still had an income cap to stick to unfortunately.

If you get a grant to start the business, it wouldn’t count towards assets since the grant cannot be used for any other purpose. I think that would be your best route. If you take out a loan... that would be in a murky area of things since technically it’s your money even if it’s, for example, a designated small business loan or new business loan from a bank. Grants would be ideal and loans might get you in trouble. Saving up for the startup is the largest barrier it seems. I have no good advice outside of grants since we are stuck adhering to the asset and income limits. It may seem like a rock and a hard place type of situation, but I’m sure there are some ways around all this red tape.

Maybe someone would be interested in sponsoring or forming a partnership to help you grow your business?

I wonder if reaching out to other disabled business owners would help?

Awesome that you got the arm covered! I saw a couple videos about one and wow!

[someonerandom]

Seriously, look into a PASS account.

[brinzerdecalli]

Sept 12, 2020 0:35:07 GMT -5 jordy said:

Yes, you can only earn below a certain amount for ticket to work. But if you stay within that range, you can keep all the coverage and benefits. Which for the 1st couple of steps of starting a business would be perfect. Ticket to work also applies to continuing education.
I haven’t explored ticket to work since I’m just jumping back into my field. I have the paperwork for it, though. Instead I’m doing the Medicaid buy in program so I can earn a bit more and still have what I need covered. My limit would be an extra $1,260 a month allowed in earnings. If I go over that, I would be screwed. I do know people who have worked within the range and kept disability as well as Medicaid. They were also putting in decent time at work, but still had an income cap to stick to unfortunately.

If you get a grant to start the business, it wouldn’t count towards assets since the grant cannot be used for any other purpose. I think that would be your best route. If you take out a loan... that would be in a murky area of things since technically it’s your money even if it’s, for example, a designated small business loan or new business loan from a bank. Grants would be ideal and loans might get you in trouble. Saving up for the startup is the largest barrier it seems. I have no good advice outside of grants since we are stuck adhering to the asset and income limits. It may seem like a rock and a hard place type of situation, but I’m sure there are some ways around all this red tape.

Maybe someone would be interested in sponsoring or forming a partnership to help you grow your business?

I wonder if reaching out to other disabled business owners would help?

Awesome that you got the arm covered! I saw a couple videos about one and wow!

I don't think businesses really fit into ticket to work because you must limit success. Any business is still considered your asset and income which will be immediately over the limit of post first year Ticket to Work. How do you see it working? If you are saying a small business that only makes a couple hundred a week with next to no investment, yeah! Ticket to work could help but any business with a grander scope and far slower gratification would not. From experience, OVR does not understand the idea of the latter either.

Grants would not count as an asset once it is invested in a company, but crowd funding is?! I haven't researched it much yet but are there many grants they give to people looking to start a business?! Most grants I knew of required some level of prior establishment and momentum.

Maybe, but have not met any who wanted to but I could trust, and everyone I trust does not express interest... People get so weird about money...

All people I have known built their business under a family member's name.

Oh yeah it is pretty cool! I'm not crazy about the way it controls and have been working for a year to try to get someone to hack it with new controls, or convince Kinova to make something better! Love being able to do photography on my own though! 

[brinzerdecalli]

Sept 12, 2020 0:45:20 GMT -5 someonerandom said:

Seriously, look into a PASS account.

The issue I've found is what I want to work towards does not qualify because "The PASS expert looks over the plan to see if the work goal is reasonable." Frankly, many entrepreneurs don't have "reasonable goals" but nobody should stop them from chasing them!

I feel they don't design it to save to run a business and repeated expenses but to get a bit of tech to enable the start of employment.

The other issue is "The objective of the PASS is to help disabled individuals find employment that reduces or eliminates SSI or SSDI benefits." This should not be the goal of anything that is designed to support independence, growth, and contribution.


And "disabled individuals" is that the PC term now? I thought PWD was.

Has any VR or WIC told you otherwise about this program?

[Green]

Sept 16, 2020 19:12:38 GMT -5 brinzerdecalli said:

Grants would not count as an asset once it is invested in a company, but crowd funding is?! I haven't researched it much yet but are there many grants they give to people looking to start a business?! Most grants I knew of required some level of prior establishment and momentum.

Maybe, but have not met any who wanted to but I could trust, and everyone I trust does not express interest... People get so weird about money...

I think this is your answer.

I agree with you about employment programs. Also, I am pretty entrepreneurial about the way I earn money, and I'm not about seeking work as a career goal. So I understand the difficulty of where you're coming from.

Some work around with money that is not necessarily an asset seems good, because that way you can guarantee money going towards your business endeavor. For sure, this is harder for you then the average entrepreneur because of your additional medical needs. But you can't worry about that. The most support from the government you would get I think is for specific employment goals, no matter what program it is, so unless you can create a short-term goal with employment out of your entrepreneurial idea, I don't think there's any point in pursuing looking for programs. You are still in the same boat as far as getting people wanting to invest. If you want to succeed as an entrepreneur, it's a requirement to find people interested. If you can't find people interested, your business idea is unrealistic and unreasonable. Either that, or you need to work harder at it.

I would also look into nongovernment assistance programs for entrepreneurs. More than likely there is something somewhere that will give you assistance which wouldn't qualify as an asset or income.

[someonerandom]

Sept 16, 2020 19:59:08 GMT -5 brinzerdecalli said:

Sept 12, 2020 0:45:20 GMT -5 someonerandom said:

Seriously, look into a PASS account.

The issue I've found is what I want to work towards does not qualify because "The PASS expert looks over the plan to see if the work goal is reasonable." Frankly, many entrepreneurs don't have "reasonable goals" but nobody should stop them from chasing them!

I feel they don't design it to save to run a business and repeated expenses but to get a bit of tech to enable the start of employment.

The other issue is "The objective of the PASS is to help disabled individuals find employment that reduces or eliminates SSI or SSDI benefits." This should not be the goal of anything that is designed to support independence, growth, and contribution.


And "disabled individuals" is that the PC term now? I thought PWD was.

Has any VR or WIC told you otherwise about this program?

The guy who trained me on PASS accounts said he once had a guy who wanted to be a rock star. They worked up a plan, which was approved, and the client saved money in his account without it being counted as an asset. In the end he used the money to get an amp and some shit, and his friends played some gigs in bars and stuff. Wasn’t a rock star, but he was able to benefit from the PASS account and get some things he wanted.

I’m not sure what is so unrealistic about starting a business. If you come up with dollar amounts for what you want, and can explain how it would be used for a vocational goal (like starting a business), it qualifies. The purpose of work incentives is to get people to work, so that they go off benefits. That’s why we have all the things you are talking about. If you do some Steve Jobs type shit you wouldn’t need benefits anyways. But if you don’t (and you probably won’t), you could at least get some camera equipment or whatever you were talking about up above.

But seriously, going off benefits should not be the goal of anything designed to promote independence and growth? Whatever lol.

I’ve never done a PASS account because they’re super rare but they’re cool as fuck and I want to do one so bad. You are like... the perfect person to have one. I would totally help you start one. All you have to do is CashApp me (and can probably pay me enough to keep you under the asset limit too)

[brinzerdecalli]

Sept 16, 2020 20:32:57 GMT -5 someonerandom said:

Sept 16, 2020 19:59:08 GMT -5 brinzerdecalli said:

The issue I've found is what I want to work towards does not qualify because "The PASS expert looks over the plan to see if the work goal is reasonable." Frankly, many entrepreneurs don't have "reasonable goals" but nobody should stop them from chasing them!

I feel they don't design it to save to run a business and repeated expenses but to get a bit of tech to enable the start of employment.

The other issue is "The objective of the PASS is to help disabled individuals find employment that reduces or eliminates SSI or SSDI benefits." This should not be the goal of anything that is designed to support independence, growth, and contribution.


And "disabled individuals" is that the PC term now? I thought PWD was.

Has any VR or WIC told you otherwise about this program?

The guy who trained me on PASS accounts said he once had a guy who wanted to be a rock star. They worked up a plan, which was approved, and the client saved money in his account without it being counted as an asset. In the end he used the money to get an amp and some shit, and his friends played some gigs in bars and stuff. Wasn’t a rock star, but he was able to benefit from the PASS account and get some things he wanted.

I’m not sure what is so unrealistic about starting a business. If you come up with dollar amounts for what you want, and can explain how it would be used for a vocational goal (like starting a business), it qualifies. The purpose of work incentives is to get people to work, so that they go off benefits. That’s why we have all the things you are talking about. If you do some Steve Jobs type shit you wouldn’t need benefits anyways. But if you don’t (and you probably won’t), you could at least get some camera equipment or whatever you were talking about up above.

But seriously, going off benefits should not be the goal of anything designed to promote independence and growth? Whatever lol.

I’ve never done a PASS account because they’re super rare but they’re cool as fuck and I want to do one so bad. You are like... the perfect person to have one. I would totally help you start one. All you have to do is CashApp me (and can probably pay me enough to keep you under the asset limit too)

Could I have the guy who trained you's contact info [you can DM it] because I'd love to learn what are the exact things to say to OVR to get them to consider my proposal. Being a rock star is super uncertain in terms of income, so I wonder how they wrote up the proposal.

Actually one of many ideas may be on the level of Zuckerberg, but there are always a ton of factors and possibilities. Fingers crossed! Though I would not really focus it through capitalistic ideals, so I probably won't be crazy rich.

I'm saying, just by enabling growth people will not be on SSI/SSDI, but to make it the focus conflates needs and intent. That should not be the end goal of a program but a stepping stone and sign of achievement. How it is now, each program is so limited in vision that people get stuck finding new cracks in the system and traps, once they fall outside of certain criteria by reaching specific goals. 

Thanks for the kind offer but I really don't know you to trust you with something like that. I hope you understand and hold no ill will!

[brinzerdecalli]

Sept 16, 2020 20:22:33 GMT -5 Green said:

Sept 16, 2020 19:12:38 GMT -5 brinzerdecalli said:

Grants would not count as an asset once it is invested in a company, but crowd funding is?! I haven't researched it much yet but are there many grants they give to people looking to start a business?! Most grants I knew of required some level of prior establishment and momentum.

Maybe, but have not met any who wanted to but I could trust, and everyone I trust does not express interest... People get so weird about money...

I think this is your answer.

I agree with you about employment programs. Also, I am pretty entrepreneurial about the way I earn money, and I'm not about seeking work as a career goal. So I understand the difficulty of where you're coming from.

Some work around with money that is not necessarily an asset seems good, because that way you can guarantee money going towards your business endeavor. For sure, this is harder for you then the average entrepreneur because of your additional medical needs. But you can't worry about that. The most support from the government you would get I think is for specific employment goals, no matter what program it is, so unless you can create a short-term goal with employment out of your entrepreneurial idea, I don't think there's any point in pursuing looking for programs. You are still in the same boat as far as getting people wanting to invest. If you want to succeed as an entrepreneur, it's a requirement to find people interested. If you can't find people interested, your business idea is unrealistic and unreasonable. Either that, or you need to work harder at it.

I would also look into nongovernment assistance programs for entrepreneurs. More than likely there is something somewhere that will give you assistance which wouldn't qualify as an asset or income.

So that is a yes to "Grants would not count as an asset once it is invested in a company, but crowd funding is?!"?

Oh awesome! What sort of business do you have and what programs/waivers did you use to build up the entity w/o losing benefits? What all benefits did/do you receive? If this is too personal for this forum, feel free to DM me.

Yes, but before getting someone to invest/partner up it is not uncommon to save 10-20k min to invest in a prototype, mock up, or small scale operation to prove viability.

[ContingentlyComposite]

Sept 16, 2020 20:32:57 GMT -5 someonerandom said:

The guy who trained me on PASS accounts said he once had a guy who wanted to be a rock star. They worked up a plan, which was approved, and the client saved money in his account without it being counted as an asset. In the end he used the money to get an amp and some shit, and his friends played some gigs in bars and stuff. Wasn’t a rock star, but he was able to benefit from the PASS account and get some things he wanted.

I’m not sure what is so unrealistic about starting a business. If you come up with dollar amounts for what you want, and can explain how it would be used for a vocational goal (like starting a business), it qualifies. The purpose of work incentives is to get people to work, so that they go off benefits. That’s why we have all the things you are talking about. If you do some Steve Jobs type shit you wouldn’t need benefits anyways. But if you don’t (and you probably won’t), you could at least get some camera equipment or whatever you were talking about up above.

But seriously, going off benefits should not be the goal of anything designed to promote independence and growth? Whatever lol.

I’ve never done a PASS account because they’re super rare but they’re cool as fuck and I want to do one so bad. You are like... the perfect person to have one. I would totally help you start one. All you have to do is CashApp me (and can probably pay me enough to keep you under the asset limit too)

I don't get why you think they're so great. I think with a PASS account you lose medicaid eligibility at the end of a 3 year period. (Am I wrong?) If you need 24/7 care, no medical insurance plan is ever going to cover that. So with a PASS account you will need to be making so much money from the business you've started that within 3 years you can afford to spend 50,000 or more a year to pay for your own care out of pocket, or else lose all that care at the end of the allotted time. That's a lot of pressure to have a highly lucrative business in just 3 years. Maybe I'm missing something about how these accounts work?

[someonerandom]

Sept 17, 2020 14:20:28 GMT -5 ContingentlyComposite said:

Sept 16, 2020 20:32:57 GMT -5 someonerandom said:

The guy who trained me on PASS accounts said he once had a guy who wanted to be a rock star. They worked up a plan, which was approved, and the client saved money in his account without it being counted as an asset. In the end he used the money to get an amp and some shit, and his friends played some gigs in bars and stuff. Wasn’t a rock star, but he was able to benefit from the PASS account and get some things he wanted.

I’m not sure what is so unrealistic about starting a business. If you come up with dollar amounts for what you want, and can explain how it would be used for a vocational goal (like starting a business), it qualifies. The purpose of work incentives is to get people to work, so that they go off benefits. That’s why we have all the things you are talking about. If you do some Steve Jobs type shit you wouldn’t need benefits anyways. But if you don’t (and you probably won’t), you could at least get some camera equipment or whatever you were talking about up above.

But seriously, going off benefits should not be the goal of anything designed to promote independence and growth? Whatever lol.

I’ve never done a PASS account because they’re super rare but they’re cool as fuck and I want to do one so bad. You are like... the perfect person to have one. I would totally help you start one. All you have to do is CashApp me (and can probably pay me enough to keep you under the asset limit too)

I don't get why you think they're so great. I think with a PASS account you lose medicaid eligibility at the end of a 3 year period. (Am I wrong?) If you need 24/7 care, no medical insurance plan is ever going to cover that. So with a PASS account you will need to be making so much money from the business you've started that within 3 years you can afford to spend 50,000 or more a year to pay for your own care out of pocket, or else lose all that care at the end of the allotted time. That's a lot of pressure to have a highly lucrative business in just 3 years. Maybe I'm missing something about how these accounts work?

I think they’re great because it’s a way to get around the asset limit, work towards a concrete goal, and it allows for individuality and creativity in developing a plan. Why don’t you get why that is great?

Do you remember where you heard about the losing Medicaid after 3 years thing, or can you link me to it? I’ve not heard of that, and wasn’t able to find anything about it. Would definitely like to know if that’s the case though.

@brinzercali it sounds like you looked into PASS and decided you’re not interested. Also, I was joking about the CashApp thing, but I am offended to know that you don’t trust me.