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Post by myrrh on Sept 22, 2020 13:37:14 GMT -5
I know this is all light-hearted, but I'm also legitimately frustrated. It's just like a woman had posting she was catcalled, and we start asking if she had large breasts and recommending ways to look less feminine. Like, I'll joke about a hip-mounted fuck-you holster all day, but wtf this shouldn't even be a thing. Anyone want to go in on a kickstarter for a rapid-fire Nerf type gun, but instead of foam slugs it fires tiny stink beetles that yell "fuck off" when they land? Think scarabs from The Mummy.
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Post by newjess on Sept 22, 2020 13:43:24 GMT -5
I completely agree myrrh. PWD shouldn't have to alter their behavior or appearance to deter inappropriate and unacceptable social behavior. And they shouldn't be called upon to take on the emotional labor of teaching people what is appropriate and what is not. The parallel you made is spot on. As a society we need to be better.
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Post by Braced4Impact on Sept 22, 2020 14:07:51 GMT -5
I know this is all light-hearted, but I'm also legitimately frustrated. It's just like a woman had posting she was catcalled, and we start asking if she had large breasts and recommending ways to look less feminine. Like, I'll joke about a hip-mounted fuck-you holster all day, but wtf this shouldn't even be a thing. Anyone want to go in on a kickstarter for a rapid-fire Nerf type gun, but instead of foam slugs it fires tiny stink beetles that yell "fuck off" when they land? Think scarabs from The Mummy. TAKE MY MONEY.
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Post by Amee on Sept 22, 2020 15:10:51 GMT -5
All of this points make much sense, thank you. But I'm afraid if we'd stick strictly to these rules, many threads would be ended very quickly, don't you think?! 🙂 There would be 5 posts with "I feel for you" and that's about it. I always thought that point of threads on PD was respectful discussion and exchange of different perspectives. That is true! To avoid the death of discussions and debates we might ask at the beginning of conversation if the person is prefering empathetic, active listening or a discussion of diverse opinions and suggestions. It helps also to check in in between and at the end. The intention of asking is to communicate consideration. Thanks for sharing your advice! Do you also happen to have some NVC-pointers about how to respectfully discuss and disagree in conversations where we do talk about political or otherwise contested topics? Because my personal impression is that that's at least an equally big problem here on PD at the moment. I've had a tiny bit of experience with NVC and what I remember was more geared towards personal conflict than "political", but maybe you know more?
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Post by Dr. BiPAP Sachin on Sept 22, 2020 19:01:36 GMT -5
but Braced4Impact then you'd be attracting attention from Nickelback fans... Lol I feel bad for Chad Kroeger. Do you think he faces harassment when he goes out in the world, since we've kind of collectively all decided to hate on Nickelback? I've always wondered what his life must be like I'm not a huge fan anymore, but my first concert was in 2006 featuring Nickelback, Hoobastank, Hinder, and Three Days Grace. Some of Nickelback's older music wasn't that bad, until the group started going downhill in 2010. I guess haters gonna hate.
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Post by Nate on Sept 22, 2020 19:26:31 GMT -5
respectfully discuss and disagree in conversations where we do talk about political or otherwise contested topics But is every opinion worthy of respect? I don't believe so, particularly in the realm of politics.
Why, for example, should I as a PWD be respectful of this sack of wine's opinions, or toward those who pontificate endlessly in his defense?
How is it good for the board when this ghoulishness is respected, or even tolerated?
It is unfortunate that political adversity has in many ways taken center stage in our otherwise friendly, politically independent message board. I believe, however, that at the end of the day it is something we may simply have to accept and deal with as best we can individually.
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Post by ContingentlyComposite on Sept 22, 2020 20:26:19 GMT -5
That is true! To avoid the death of discussions and debates we might ask at the beginning of conversation if the person is prefering empathetic, active listening or a discussion of diverse opinions and suggestions. It helps also to check in in between and at the end. The intention of asking is to communicate consideration. Thanks for sharing your advice! Do you also happen to have some NVC-pointers about how to respectfully discuss and disagree in conversations where we do talk about political or otherwise contested topics? Because my personal impression is that that's at least an equally big problem here on PD at the moment. I've had a tiny bit of experience with NVC and what I remember was more geared towards personal conflict than "political", but maybe you know more? There are a lot of helpful resources made by philosophers about how to have constructive debates in general, and about politics in particular. I can't find my favorite one at the moment, but this two part blog series (by a libertarian-ish philosopher I might add!) is not bad. fakenous.net/?p=46
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dev4ever
Junior Member
Married (poly)
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Gender: Female
Dev Status: Devotee
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Post by dev4ever on Sept 23, 2020 1:51:27 GMT -5
That is true! To avoid the death of discussions and debates we might ask at the beginning of conversation if the person is prefering empathetic, active listening or a discussion of diverse opinions and suggestions. It helps also to check in in between and at the end. The intention of asking is to communicate consideration. Thanks for sharing your advice! Do you also happen to have some NVC-pointers about how to respectfully discuss and disagree in conversations where we do talk about political or otherwise contested topics? Because my personal impression is that that's at least an equally big problem here on PD at the moment. I've had a tiny bit of experience with NVC and what I remember was more geared towards personal conflict than "political", but maybe you know more? NVC skills are helpful in every conflict in my opinion. When it comes to political disagreement we often forget that regardless of the differences in our political orientation we are still all having our basic human physical and emotional needs. Here are some suggestions for handling political conflict here on PD: - Acknowledge that the conflict exist and state that you still see the human behind the disagreement: "I see we are in disagreement on some issues here. I want you to know that I will respect your needs, feelings and your sense of dignity even if you disagree with me." - Ask for charity and patience: "I noticed that you care a lot about this particular issue and I understand that me disagreeing with you might create a disconnection between two of us. I want us to stay connected though, would you be willing to be charitable and patient with me even if we would have to agree to disagree?" - Encourage communal support: "I see that at this point disagreement is starting to hurt at least some of the members of our community. Often it's not possible for people in conflict with each other to get the understanding and respect they need from each other. In this case it's more effective to insure that each conflict party gets the support they need from other members of the community, those they feel safe with. If anyone can offer the needed support to members affected by conflict, please comment here so they can contact you if and when they want to".
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Post by missparkle on Sept 23, 2020 2:27:31 GMT -5
respectfully discuss and disagree in conversations where we do talk about political or otherwise contested topics But is every opinion worthy of respect? I don't believe so, particularly in the realm of politics. This is very slippery field I believe. To respectfully discuss means to respect other people's RIGHT to express their own opinion, no matter how different it may be from ours. This is democracy, no? People vote, expressing different opinions. Should we not respect their right to vote, if we disagree with their choices?
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dev4ever
Junior Member
Married (poly)
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Gender: Female
Dev Status: Devotee
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Post by dev4ever on Sept 23, 2020 6:09:19 GMT -5
But is every opinion worthy of respect? I don't believe so, particularly in the realm of politics. This is very slippery field I believe. To respectfully discuss means to respect other people's RIGHT to express their own opinion, no matter how different it may be from ours. This is democracy, no? People vote, expressing different opinions. Should we not respect their right to vote, if we disagree with their choices? I believe that respect might be not the most useful word to understand what is happening because people define it in different ways. I would probably rather talk about consideration and maybe we can find even more precise words. Should every opinion be considered? I would say yes, because every opinion is someone's hope for a better or at least not worse future. An opinion is usually related to a strategy which we consider to be effective for our future. I might want to forbid people to own guns because I believe that this strategy would keep me safe and in control. Now if someone disagrees with me I might feel like they don't care about my safety. However, this person who wants to own guns is also concerned with safety but is prefering a different strategy. To connect with each other we might agree that we both want to feel safe and in control of our safety.
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Post by Amee on Sept 23, 2020 10:25:52 GMT -5
respectfully discuss and disagree in conversations where we do talk about political or otherwise contested topics But is every opinion worthy of respect? I don't believe so, particularly in the realm of politics.
Why, for example, should I as a PWD be respectful of this sack of wine's opinions, or toward those who pontificate endlessly in his defense?Â
How is it good for the board when this ghoulishness is respected, or even tolerated?
It is unfortunate that political adversity has in many ways taken center stage in our otherwise friendly, politically independent message board. I believe, however, that at the end of the day it is something we may simply have to accept and deal with as best we can individually. Mocking someone isn't an opinion and of course it should never be respected. I don't believe anyone here is defending that kind of behaviour. They may be defending his policies, they may be defending their decision to vote for him despite this behaviour (for policy reasons), but I don't believe anyone here has ever defended that kind of behaviour. And I wouldn't have brought up Trump, but since you have: Trump isn't a member of this board (Thank God ) so you don't need to respect him or his opinions on here. But the people who agree with all or some of his policies and voted for him should still be treated with respect, as long as they themselves behave respectfully. They are not responsible for all of his behaviour, even if they voted for him. Voting very often is choosing "the lesser of two evils" anyway. I also don't believe the question should be whether an opinion is worthy of respect, but whether the person holding and expressing that opinion is worthy of respect and whether disagreement should be expressed respectfully. You can consider someone's opinion as "stupid" and still treat them as a person respectfully, which in a discussion means trying to understand what exactly they believe and why. And not assume that they're just idiots or uneducated or assholes (as both sides often do). And I agree with you, there are limits to what we should respect. If someone comes on here and declares that they think PWDs and/or people who are sexually deviant (like devs) should be euthanized, we don't have to respect such a person. But I'm fairly certain they would be kicked off by the moderators in no time, anyway. But that's not what's happening here. The latest ongoing and heated disagreements were on Covid response. I dimly remember some other discussion about socialism. Do you really believe that we shouldn't respect people with differing opinions on Covid response and socialism? How is it good for the board, if people who disagree with the majority on here are treated respectfully and at the very least tolerated (including Trump supporters and people who believe Covid should just be left to its natural course)? Because this is a board unique in its purpose and community. Where else are Republican devs supposed to go? Or PWD, who think Covid is overhyped? Or anything in between... "The board" are devs and PWD who wish to connect with them. Yeah, I think it's good for both of those groups, if they are respected or at least tolerated with their diverse opinions.
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Post by Amee on Sept 23, 2020 10:45:15 GMT -5
Thanks for sharing your advice! Do you also happen to have some NVC-pointers about how to respectfully discuss and disagree in conversations where we do talk about political or otherwise contested topics? Because my personal impression is that that's at least an equally big problem here on PD at the moment. I've had a tiny bit of experience with NVC and what I remember was more geared towards personal conflict than "political", but maybe you know more? There are a lot of helpful resources made by philosophers about how to have constructive debates in general, and about politics in particular. I can't find my favorite one at the moment, but this two part blog series (by a libertarian-ish philosopher I might add!) is not bad. fakenous.net/?p=46 Loved the blog entry, thanks for sharing! (Couldn't find part 2 on the mobile version somehow, but I'll try later on the desktop version) One I really like is this by Carl Rogers: "Real communication occurs, and this evaluative tendency is avoided, when we listen with understanding. What does this mean? It means to see the expressed idea and attitude form the other person’s point of view, to sense how it feels to him, to achieve his frame of reference in regard to the thing he is talking about." "Each person can speak up for himself only after he has restated the ideas and feelings of the previous speaker accurately and to that person’s satisfaction." "You see what this would mean. It would simply mean that before presenting your own point of view, it would be necessary for you to achieve the other speakers frame of reference – to understand his thoughts and feelings so well that you could summarise them for him. Sounds simple doesn’t it? But if you try it, you will discover that it is one of the most difficult things you have ever tried to do. However, once you have been able to see the others point of view, your own comments will have to be drastically revised. You will also find the emotion going out of the discussion, the differences being reduced, and those differences which remain being of a rational and understandable sort..."
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Post by myrrh on Sept 23, 2020 14:00:56 GMT -5
Guys. This thread started as a PWD venting about an experience he had that is specifically relating to being a PWD. It became a teachable moment on what it means to be an ally, ableism, and the work we can do to be more inclusive of PWD as a society. And now it's turned into a treatise on how we should respect Trump supporters. Again, a thread that was on topic for PD has been inappropriately derailed by politics. As much as I want to give a TED talk about why some people have lost their respectability through consciously choosing deplorable actions, I'm going to exercise a modicum of self-restraint. We can have a thread on this (I would love that, because HOOOOOO BOY do I have a lot to say) but seriously, take a second and think about how a very important and relevant topic (ableism in society) should be explored in depth without veering off into the badlands.
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Post by Braced4Impact on Sept 23, 2020 14:22:13 GMT -5
^I wish I could love this rather than like it.
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Post by missparkle on Sept 23, 2020 14:22:39 GMT -5
We can ignore the fact the problem on PD exists, we can pretend that everything is all roses and just continue in the same manner. Or... We can acknowledge there is a problem, identify it and agree that we want to work on solving it, all together. If we want to make society better, we might as well start from making our small community better. One step at a time.
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