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Post by LaMara on Jan 24, 2021 14:44:03 GMT -5
Hey! Asking help to all the blind guys on PD!
For the last couple years (with large gaps in the middle unfortunately) I’ve been attempting to write a novel. Chances are I will never let anyone read it but it makes me happy.
One of the main characters is a blind guy; I tried to depict him in the best way possible, using my dev knowledge and trying to avoid dumb stereotypes, but I would still appreciate some advice.
So can you tell me what really bugs you in the representation of blind people in literature and other media? Is there something that is always left out? Something that you wish was described more accurately?
Any suggestions of well done representation I could use as reference?
I would appreciate any input! Thank you so much!
Obviously devs and other PWDs are welcome to express their opinion too!
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Post by Celaena on Jan 24, 2021 19:41:10 GMT -5
I have no experience, but one thing that always makes me cringe is the "Let me touch your face so I can feel how beautiful you are".
Maybe that really happens, but when it happens in a public setting in movies/novels, it just makes me shudder. I mean, I could see it making sense in a sensual love scene, but it always comes across as awkward when presented that way.
And you should share your writing! I am up to almost 60k on my dev novel that is purely for myself, but I do plan on eventually sharing with you lovely folks! (It's all handwritten, so sometime next year, maybe.)
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Post by devogirl on Jan 24, 2021 21:02:08 GMT -5
Oh man I have THOUGHTS about this! Since you asked other devs for opinions too I will share some. I'm currently hard at work on my fourth novel with a blind guy main character.
I assume since you are a dev author you won't go for the most egregious stereotypes, like the miracle cure, "seeing" via magic, the angry, bitter, self-pitying trope, or blindness only used as a metaphor for something else, or a character solely defined by his disability. But there are a lot of other things that drive me crazy too. At the top of the list is when authors can't imagine any other way to express emotion besides with the eyes/face, so the blind guy is rolling his eyes or giving someone a sad/angry/happy/desiring look. It's just lazy writing, and a huge tell that the author has never met a blind person in real life. The details on this vary, so a person who was sighted until adulthood or has low vision may make eye contact or be more expressive. But someone who has been totally blind from birth, no. My ex-bf K not only couldn't control his eye movements, he also didn't have much muscle control of his eyebrows or forehead. He often wasn't even aware when he was frowning, and his facial expressions rarely matched his mood. It really took some getting used to.
Another thing I really hate is when the character pretends to be sighted. First, this is almost impossible to pull off successfully in most cases. Humans are evolved to be hyper aware of eye movements and eye contact. We can tell instantly when something is even slightly off. But more importantly, this is usually ableist bullshit. I especially hate it when the author coyly hides a character's blindness from the reader until a chapter or two into the book. Hello?! We read the blurb so you're not fooling anyone. What is the point of this?
It doesn't happen so much in romance, but in movies/tv there is almost always a scene where the blind person has to drive a car. Again, this is almost always ableist bullshit. Why include this? What is this adding to the character or plot?
Superfluous or ridiculous service animals really drive me crazy. If the character has a guide dog, do your research and make it realistic. Don't just give the character a random stray that somehow knows what to do. Even worse when it's other animals. There are some terrible romance novels that do this, one with a miniature horse and one with a pet tiger. Ugh!
I have mixed feelings about face touching. On the one hand, it should never be the way a blind person identifies anyone, or to "see beauty" as Celaena mentioned. On the other hand, I find it hot, so as long as it's part of a sex scene, leading up to other kinds of intimate touching, I think it's fine.
The way the character manages his disability should reflect where he is in his life/character arc. In other words, if the guy's life is kind of a mess, maybe he's not making the best choices about anything. In one of my novels, some readers have questioned why the main character's house is such a mess. Shouldn't a blind person keep his house in meticulous order? Well, yes, but it's a sign of how his whole life is kind of a mess too. Also that detail is taken directly from the real life of K, who when I knew him lived in a shockingly messy house. People don't always act in their own best self-interest. I have also known many SCI guys who did not take care of themselves the way they should, due to depression, or just being young and stupid. This can be part of a character arc.
If the story is set in the present day, it should reflect real assistive technology and real O&M training techniques. If this story is historical, don't assume that all disabled people were shunned or stuck in institutions. That did happen, but there are lots of self-actualized PWDs in history.
In my writing I've tried really hard to overturn these stereotypes, and to include details from real blind people I have met. There are also several autobiographies of blind people that have given me some ideas. Youtube videos are also a good source of data.
I am curious to hear from blindLeap and blindlover but you'll have to summon them since they only post occasionally.
Anyway LaMara and Celaena I hope you do both consider posting your stories on the blog. We're always happy to have new writers, and the readers are kind and supportive. I'm happy to give private feedback too if you don't want to post publicly. |
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Post by elbs on Jan 27, 2021 14:45:23 GMT -5
My biggest pet peeve is the assumption that blind people are helpless. A lot of fictional blind characters are way less competent at sightless navigation than an actual person with the same life experiences would be. Or indeed less competent than I am as a sighted person who occasionally wanders around in pitch dark!
If you're going to write a blind character, I recommend a) researching what blind people can do and how they do those things, and b) acting out the occasional scene from the story with your eyes closed.
But as a dev you're probably less likely to make this mistake than most fiction writers.
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Post by LaMara on Jan 27, 2021 16:08:48 GMT -5
Thank you girls! I think I got most of what you mentioned covered. Some of your pet peeves are also my pet peeves. In particular I HATE the face touching thing with a passion, I find it so dumb!
The thing I probably need to research a lot more is adaptive technology and O&M techniques because I have very little knowledge and I kinda winged it until now.
I tried my best to make the character well rounded, he has a personality and a bunch of flaws completely unrelated to blindness, it's not his main trait although it ties in to some plot points. When I write a scene from his point of view, I try to forgo all visual references and describe everything through the senses he uses the most.
I'm finding it difficult to guess this character's abilities in certain unusual circumstances, for example if a blind person goes on a hike, how independent will they be? I imagine a rough terrain would make using a cane impossible, would they be able to manage with hiking poles? Could they do it without physically holding onto a guide? What if the path is clearly recognisable but not flat? Would they be able, after doing the same route a certain amount of time, to tackle it on their own or is that way too dangerous?
I also probably need to understand and describe better facial expressions and mannerisms (are they called blindisms or am I crazy? I think I read about it) of someone who was blind from birth; I probably did describe expressions as simply smiling, grinning, frowning and perhaps that's not accurate.
I'm very grateful for the help you all, but I really wanna hear from the guys! I think they'll come up with stuff I had never even thought about. I might collect some courage and eventually contact them privately for some sort of questionnaire/interview...
Also, I'm unlikely to ever publish anything on the board, my anxiety is really too big and it would make me feel way too exposed. I might consider in the future sending snippets to someone who could give me constructive criticism but only privately and after a solemn oath of never ever divulging it.
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Post by devogirl on Jan 28, 2021 3:32:09 GMT -5
I also probably need to understand and describe better facial expressions and mannerisms (are they called blindisms or am I crazy? I think I read about it) of someone who was blind from birth; I probably did describe expressions as simply smiling, grinning, frowning and perhaps that's not accurate.
You're not crazy, they are called blindisms. There is a good discussion here:
Smiling is universal, even people who have never seen will smile, so don't hesitate to put that in. What I noticed with K was that he often frowned and looked angry when he was simply thinking or concentrating, and when someone told him he was frowning, he couldn't always change his expression. I also noticed that he often looked kind of blank; he just didn't show emotion on his face that much. But he did smile and grin a lot when he was happy or excited.
There are O&M videos on youtube if you need to do more research. The Tommy Edison videos are also very informative.
PD member erikajulia is very knowledgeable--try to get in touch with her. I'm happy to read anything you want, confidentially of course, just send me a PM. |
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erikajulia
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Post by erikajulia on Feb 28, 2021 6:53:16 GMT -5
At the top of the list is when authors can't imagine any other way to express emotion besides with the eyes/face, so the blind guy is rolling his eyes or giving someone a sad/angry/happy/desiring look. It's just lazy writing, and a huge tell that the author has never met a blind person in real life. The details on this vary, so a person who was sighted until adulthood or has low vision may make eye contact or be more expressive. But someone who has been totally blind from birth, no. My ex-bf K not only couldn't control his eye movements, he also didn't have much muscle control of his eyebrows or forehead. He often wasn't even aware when he was frowning, and his facial expressions rarely matched his mood. It really took some getting used to. Hmmmmmyes. But Hmmmmno. :-D If the blind person has had no training and has not been made aware of the use facial expressions etc. he may be like K. And there are quite some blind people who are like that. But ... here in Germany (I can only speak about how it's done here) quite a lot of blind children are taught about social acceptable behaviour - including facial expressions, turning one's face to the person you're listening to etc. pp. It's not forced upon pupils, but offered, so that they may have a choice if they want to use that set of skills. Often these skills are transported in quite an attractive way - classes for acting and theater, e.g. Often there are afternoon-"classes" or sometimes summer-"classes" for it.
A former friend of mine (born blind without eyes, he had prosthetics) had not only his facial expressions completely under control, but also his inner eye-muscles. One day he was sitting on the sofa, and I crossed the room in front of him - and he "followed me" only with his eyes! He had me sooo freaked out! We had just talked about his collection of prosthetic eyes, and then that! He was extremely delighted that he was able to throw me totally out of balance. :-D
So I'd like to say: It depends. ;-)
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Post by erikajulia on Feb 28, 2021 7:10:11 GMT -5
There are some terrible romance novels that do this, one with a miniature horse and one with a pet tiger. Ugh! Well, there are Fallabella-horses trained to be guide-horses, and they seem to be effective. A tiger? Really? Who did it? :-D In one of my novels, some readers have questioned why the main character's house is such a mess. Do I know that novel already? ;-) If the story is set in the present day, it should reflect real assistive technology and real O&M training techniques. If this story is historical, don't assume that all disabled people were shunned or stuck in institutions. That did happen, but there are lots of self-actualized PWDs in history. Amen, sister! Anyway LaMara and Celaena I hope you do both consider posting your stories on the blog. We're always happy to have new writers, and the readers are kind and supportive. I'm happy to give private feedback too if you don't want to post publicly. Exactly that. Me, too. :-) |
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Post by devogirl on Feb 28, 2021 7:28:21 GMT -5
There are some terrible romance novels that do this, one with a miniature horse and one with a pet tiger. Ugh! Well, there are Fallabella-horses trained to be guide-horses, and they seem to be effective. A tiger? Really? Who did it? :-D In one of my novels, some readers have questioned why the main character's house is such a mess. Do I know that novel already? ;-)
The terrible romance with the seeing eye tiger is Taming Lord Renwick by Jeanne Savery. I can't believe I gave it three stars, in retrospect it's really terrible. I think I was more generous to terrible romance writing back then; I hadn't read so much that I recognized all the awful cliches.
I can't recall the title of the one with the miniature horse. I never actually read it, I just read the Amazon page. The reviews were full of people complaining that it was not realistic, and very defensive replies by the author that it was possible. Regardless, I think it's a stupid gimmick for a bad romance.
I don't know if you have read my books or not, but thanks for asking! The character with the messy house is Tom Finch, and I stand by that plot detail  The link is to Amazon.com but all my books are on Amazon.de if you're interested, and the latest one is on some other retailers too.
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Post by erikajulia on Feb 28, 2021 7:47:35 GMT -5
The thing I probably need to research a lot more is adaptive technology and O&M techniques because I have very little knowledge and I kinda winged it until now. Might be a good reason to visit an exhibition/a fair of adaptive tech. I don't know about where you live, but trade fairs like that happen a few times a year in Germany. Well, they will happen again after... and lots can be found online. When I write a scene from his point of view, I try to forgo all visual references and describe everything through the senses he uses the most. Sounds wonderful. I'd really like to have a look. ;-) It's sad that often, when authors try to write that way, they reduce the telling almost completely to listening to someone speaking (seldom someone moving) or to speaking. Well, touching happens, but quite often only in direct relation to sex scenes. I'm finding it difficult to guess this character's abilities in certain unusual circumstances, for example if a blind person goes on a hike, how independent will they be? You have heard the name Eric Weihenmayer? It's little to do with blindness, but with likes and dislikes, motivation, training, other physical ability. I have once been dragged for hours by the arm by a little old blind man who very badly wanted to "go for a walk" - had I known he wanted to go on a 4 h hiking-tour, I would not have gone with him. :-D He needed my eyes in order not to get lost in the unfamiliar forest, but I needed him badly ad the end of the day in order to even reach the house again... :-D A Video to ilustrate what Weihenmayer doesAnother link - it shows a bit of the technique used I imagine a rough terrain would make using a cane impossible, would they be able to manage with hiking poles? Could they do it without physically holding onto a guide? What if the path is clearly recognisable but not flat? Would they be able, after doing the same route a certain amount of time, to tackle it on their own or is that way too dangerous? As said above: That depends on much more than being blind. I also probably need to understand and describe better facial expressions and mannerisms (are they called blindisms or am I crazy? I think I read about it) of someone who was blind from birth; I probably did describe expressions as simply smiling, grinning, frowning and perhaps that's not accurate. "Blindism" is a term widely used - it depends on what you want to say if you use it or not. Most of these individual "stereotyped behaviors" are not only shown by people who are blind, but by people who are autistic or mentally handicapped, by people who have been hospitalized or are deprived of bodily exercise, who are in severe stress - or, in case of "rocking" by people deep in prayer. The topic is wide. Seems I've said it before: That depends on much more than being blind. :-D I did some research about it a lifetime ago in university, feel free to ask whatever comes to your mind. I'll at least try to answer. |
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Post by devogirl on Feb 28, 2021 8:22:04 GMT -5
Oh right, I forgot about Eric Weihenmayer. There are a bunch of documentaries about him, very informative. There's one called Blindsight about how he tried to train a group of blind Tibetan teenagers to climb Mt Everest. You can see how they train and lots of different opinions/reactions, how they all tackle it a bit differently. Might be good research material. |
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Post by erikajulia on Feb 28, 2021 8:52:18 GMT -5
I don't know if you have read my books or not, I have. Love in touch, Tom Finch (and it's time to reread that book, I enjoyed it very much - think I stated it here somewhere... never mind), Flowers by Night - the last one just recently. I'm not much into Asian culture, and therefore felt sometimes quite stupid and in need of a dictionary/encyclopaedia, but it was still quite fascinating. Do you know what will be next? :-D |
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Post by devogirl on Mar 1, 2021 3:49:32 GMT -5
I have. Love in touch, Tom Finch (and it's time to reread that book, I enjoyed it very much - think I stated it here somewhere... never mind), Flowers by Night - the last one just recently. I'm not much into Asian culture, and therefore felt sometimes quite stupid and in need of a dictionary/encyclopaedia, but it was still quite fascinating. Do you know what will be next? :-D
Thank you so much!! I don't want to derail this thread too much but I am working on the next one now. It will be a while before it's finished because I write so slowly, but it will be set in the present day, not historical fiction. Maybe good news for fans of Devo Diary who are not into historical fiction I'm attempting a first person narrator who has retinitis pigmentosa. Actually I'm finding it more challenging to write in a male POV character than the blindness aspect. |
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Post by LaMara on Mar 1, 2021 8:27:42 GMT -5
Oh right, I forgot about Eric Weihenmayer. There are a bunch of documentaries about him, very informative. There's one called Blindsight about how he tried to train a group of blind Tibetan teenagers to climb Mt Everest. You can see how they train and lots of different opinions/reactions, how they all tackle it a bit differently. Might be good research material. I watched it a long time ago, it’s amazing! I’m still hoping that some of the guys will comment too, and I’m waaaay to shy to message them, but I really want to hear their opinion 😓 |
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Post by blindLeap on Jan 12, 2022 11:23:37 GMT -5
For what it's worth, I'd say most of the things I would have mentioned here are covered quite well. Obviously I don't know the setting this book plays in, unless it zipped by me while skimming the topic, but if it's a contemporary setting, you'll probably want to make sure that things like living aids or the lack there of make sense. My little story on the blog, one I keep meaning to return to after which some random encounter sends me astray, I try to emphasize those, as they are an important point in , particularly, a fully blind person's life, think smartphones and such. I'd say the best way to make sure is to have a couple blind people read some of your work. I'm a blind people, I enjoy reading, feel free to poke me to give you some pointers when and if you need  |
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The link is to Amazon.com but all my books are on Amazon.de if you're interested, and the latest one is on 
