when devs and pwds DON'T interact...

[ayla]

I was having a conversation with a PWD friend lately and stumbled across a metaphor that might help explain one aspect of the dev experience. With his permission, I'm adapting it into a thread.

I don't see PWD as sexual objects or things, but as people to whom I am naturally very attracted (physically and otherwise).

It's my belief that interactions between individual devs and individual PWD are vital to our healthy expression of sexuality. I can't speak to the PWD side, of course (would love you guys to weigh in!), but for me as a dev it just feels so much more healthy to interact with an individual PWD on the topic of devness. More healthy than what, you may ask? Well, I think every dev, though he/she will be loathe to admit it, knows the weird things we might do to "scratch that itch" otherwise. Many of us have had the unpleasant experience of trying to repress or avoid our dev desires. That often leads us down some strange rabbit holes of disability-related stuff, trying to indirectly satisfy some urge but ultimately just getting frustrated and confused. The unfulfilling nature of this process can lead us to become obsessive, further isolating us with our interests as we fear nobody will understand why we are SO compelled. 

So here's the metaphor I came up with. If you're a straight guy: imagine if women were a group of people you knew existed and knew you were attracted to, but had almost no way of getting to know personally and rarely if ever saw in real life (and also had almost zero representation in porn/erotica). You'd probably find yourself doing some odd things too...maybe reading women's clothing catalogs, consuming any literature or films with women characters (regardless of quality), going to the encyclopedia (must be Wikipedia these days for you young'uns) to read the entries on random woman-related concepts like "ovaries" or "suffragettes," asking yourself if it's okay for you to attend a WNBA game or a feminist conference, watching YouTube videos of women doing everyday things just to get a glimpse... and you'd probably start to feel like a creep about it over time. You'd know that you are getting something sexual out of things that were not intended to be sexual, and you'd know that this bothers some of the people you'd really like to be getting to know. It might create a cycle of shame and reluctance to interact ("if they knew how creepy I was, they'd never want to know me"). It might leave you feeling like maybe you are just a weird, objectifying pervert after all. 

This is what the dev experience can be like when we don't interact with PWD, for whatever reasons (availability, our own internalized guilt/shame/hangups, rejection, denial, poor communication or social skills, etc.) So I'm not trying to say it's easy peasy. It definitely requires we meet one another halfway and with a healthy dose of self-awareness. But I am saying that I appreciate the ability to connect with others through this forum, and that's why I think it is such a unique and necessary place. The dev experience does not need to be like this if we have healthy avenues for expression! 

[jakewheelz]

So if I'm honest I'm still getting used to the whole dev thing but, I was thinking of it like you and it's not as "weird" as it first seems. In my example I was thinking about how people are attracted to certain skin colors or shapes and sizes, in your case (devs) your interested in people with disabilities. It might not be the most common "attractive trait" but there's nothing wrong with it particularly, it's only like finding skinnier people or a black person more attractive.

[atlwheelin]

I’ll say that from a PWD who was unaware of what a dev even was before I found this place, I don’t think I could spot a dev in public. Until they reveal those things, all I’m seeing is an attractive woman that I know has layers behind that beautiful external shell.

The thing we need to overcome the most from my experience away from this place, on social media, and out in the real world; the stigma that an able bodied person finding a person with a disability attractive is taboo. Any body on this planet should be able to love who they want for whatever reason they want (within legalities obviously)

[ayla]

Mar 3, 2021 17:54:39 GMT -5 atlwheelin said:

I’ll say that from a PWD who was unaware of what a dev even was before I found this place, I don’t think I could spot a dev in public. Until they reveal those things, all I’m seeing is an attractive woman that I know has layers behind that beautiful external shell.

The thing we need to overcome the most from my experience away from this place, on social media, and out in the real world; the stigma that an able bodied person finding a person with a disability is taboo. Any body on this planet should be able to love who they want for whatever reason they want (within legalities obviously)

I've always felt it's pretty insulting to PWD that devness is seen as so transgressive. It just reinforces the misconception that disabled = sexless, ugh. Why on earth shouldn't disability be as sexy as any other core physical attribute of a person? We understand when people have a strong preference about the size (height and/or weight) of their partner -- and we even EXPECT that most people will have some preference about those features. Granted for most devs it's about more than just the physical "look" but just to normalize this aspect of the attraction would be so helpful.

[atlwheelin]

Over the last few years I took the time and money to invest in premium EHarmony and OKCupid accounts (because it’s the only app I found where in the questionnaire was “Would you date somebody with a disability”). Over that time, I may have gotten 5 replies back in total. 3 of those 5 are you’re nice but not what I’m looking for (you don’t say?). The other two will end up good banter back and forth but there definitely hasn’t been an effort for someone to wanna have a face to face, pre or post COVID.

It’s one of those things you absolutely can’t hide on a first impression, and the stigma will usually already decide your fate before they even read your profile

[LaMara]

I understand where you come from ayla because I’ve been in that same place too. But now I stand in a very different position, possibly even opposite to where you stand, where I’m more comfortable and I find it healthier to reduce contact with PWDs and “scratch the itch” only through films, books, etc...
And I know my case is pretty unique because I recently came to the realisation that I’m asexual (and also probably aromantic or grey romantic), which means that my devness is mostly aesthetic/emotional and the very small percentage of it that is sexual just means I have a libido but no sexual attraction.
Problem is, most people don’t understand the difference and assume that having a kink for PDWs must mean that I want to have sex with them, therefore I often find myself in the uncomfortable situation of telling PWDs that I might want to be friends or ask questions but I’m not attracted to them.
It might seem like a contradiction but it’s really not, sexuality is complicated and that doesn’t make it unhealthy or wrong.
My therapist recently told me that there’s very little that can be “wrong” in one’s sexuality besides obviously non consensual stuff. Everything that works, if it hurts no one, it’s a-okay.
So looking up PWD related stuff, watching videos, reading books etc is not unhealthy per se, it might be unsatisfactory for most devs in the long run and it might cause shame because we’ve been conditioned to believe only a small set of behaviours is “right” when it comes to sexual attraction, but it doesn’t mean it’s a bad thing to do.
There’s still so much unnecessary shame in a dev’s experience! I still feel it from time to time, but I didn’t choose ito be this way and I’m not willing to be told anymore how to live my devness (I had some really awful conversations with certain guys who thought I wasn’t a “real dev” if I wasn’t up for sexy talk. Gross).
I wish sometimes I could contact one of the many interesting, well spoken PWDs here just to chat and make friends without the implication that I might be interested in something more, but I’m too afraid it won’t work and the assumptions will stay. Idk, it’s still a strange place to be for me.

[ayla]

[mention]lamara835 [/mention] thank you for sharing your perspective too! I think it’s totally valid and yes there is nothing wrong with any of the actions I’ve described. The unhealthy part, in my opinion, comes from the feeling of getting something sexual out of something ostensibly non sexual. Feeling that there’s “more to” what you’re doing than you’re ready to admit to yourself or another person. Those feelings drive shame and lead to isolation. Engaging with your desires honestly — be they sexual or asexual/intellectual— doesn’t product that kind of inner conflict. And when I say “interacting with PWD,” I’m definitely NOT referring only to sexual contact. In fact being able to have a conversation where devness is acknowledged but there isn’t a sexual connection is extremely satisfying (to me). So if you’re at a place in your life where not interacting personally feels right and doesn’t produce incongruent feelings, brava, keep doing that! I would never want you to feel that I’m shaming the way you dev ;) or that I’m implying there’s anything inappropriate about these activities. There’s nothing inherently creepy or wrong about them at all!!

The “creepy” feeling is self imposed for the most part. My encouragement is more for those who feel perpetually dissatisfied and progressively more secretive/confused by their actions. Less likely to express their sexuality in a healthy way. I want to help the guys understand one mechanism that can cause us to carry more feelings of shame. Because it’s not so much like “oh how horrible to be attracted to pwd, what a gross and shameful thing” so much as “it’s shameful to have felt sexual feelings when I was told I wasn’t supposed to.” I’m with you 100% that we need to ditch as much shame as we can.

[LaMara]

I agree with everything you said ayla!
It’s a work in progress for all of us, and definitely getting over the shame we’re self imposing is a big part of it.
The thing is, I WANT to interact with PWDs more but because of previous experiences I sometimes feel discouraged from doing it (at least privately, I feel comfortable if it’s on the public board), in the past I always heavily felt the assumption that if a dev contacts a PWD, she must be attracted to him/there is a chance for him. It’s hard to create platonic friendships with this assumption always behind the corner.
I also have social anxiety and it stops me from interacting with people on a personal level because I always get anxious about their intentions or what they think of me.
I see every day the hopeful messages of the new PWDs that introduce themselves and openly declare they want to meet a woman for romantic/sexual purposes, and I know that’s not me.
But I don’t want to derail your thread any longer. You brought up a lot of truths. They don’t apply to all devs but certainly to a lot.

[ayla]

No it’s not a de-rail at all! I think this is a really important nuance. It’s so valuable to acknowledge this unrealistic split image of devs. Either we are repressed nymphomaniacs on the prowl for PWD or we are adamantly NOT sexually interested and merely curious (or sadly as you’ve been told [mention]lamara835 [/mention] “not a real dev”). Does this speak to a misunderstanding common to PWD? You straight guys, don’t you think it’s healthy to just be able to socialize with women who know you’re a straight man, even women you’re not sexually interested in? Imagine trying to connect to a woman you ARE sexually attracted to having never been able to just talk socially with a woman!

[atlwheelin]

From the PWD perspective, the number of people willing to even look at a PWD in a non asexual way is a very small percentile. I could completely understand why a dev would feel uneasy with feeling like they’re only viewed in a sexual manner. But, at least for me, I tend to get WAY too excited if something shows signs of potential, and I’ll set these unrealistic expectations on myself, and anyone with social anxiety knows how the rest of this story goes. Party of one 😂

[infinatedreams]

Mar 4, 2021 8:22:15 GMT -5 ayla said:

No it’s not a de-rail at all! I think this is a really important nuance. It’s so valuable to acknowledge this unrealistic split image of devs. Either we are repressed nymphomaniacs on the prowl for PWD or we are adamantly NOT sexually interested and merely curious (or sadly as you’ve been told [mention]lamara835 [/mention] “not a real dev”). Does this speak to a misunderstanding common to PWD? You straight guys, don’t you think it’s healthy to just be able to socialize with women who know you’re a straight man, even women you’re not sexually interested in? Imagine trying to connect to a woman you ARE sexually attracted to having never been able to just talk socially with a woman!

I think this misunderstanding is common to ALL men pwd or AB, despite the progress in equality the sense of male entitlement still runs strong. 
 
a PWD when met with a rejection or no interest in pursuing a sexual conversation/interaction may well react with the 'well you cant be a dev then' line, just the same as an AB guy when rejected gives it the 'well your obviously frigid or a lesbian' bollox.  Both are wrong and both are still common.  Yet still not all guys are like that.

I found PD and thought 'ooooh this is interesting' and did my best to understand devness and the individuality of devness and I tihnk ive had some really meaningful conversations with devs during my time here, sadly I think most PWD find PD and think 'oooh at last i will get laid' dont care about understanding devness and dont care about how it is quite specific and persoanl to each and every dev.  Those guys tend to not stick around too long or lurk in the background to pounce on every new dev who says hello with offers/requests for sex  and that can make some devs who may well be in the early stages of realising they 'arent alone' run to the hills.

So yeah some guys are more than happy to talk about themselves and their disability without any pre-conviced end game with a dev whether they are interested sexually or not.  But these guys just like the AB guys are in the minority.   Maybe that will change over time, but I wouldnt hold my breath over it.

[ayla]

For sure, it’s more of a male problem of entitlement han a PWD problem. It’s prevalent in society at large. [mention]infinatedreams [/mention]nailed it when he references the classic catcall turnabout from “hey beautiful” to “fuck you ugly bitch.” I can also empathize with the (very understandable) over excitement of some PWD when they find this place. I guess we need to remember that, PWD and dev alike, we all want to be treated like a person first.

[supermamat1986]

I found out devs thanks to an unknown guy I,god knows why, accepted as friend. I think in France despite the lot of female friends I have (around 80% of my entourage) no dev. Could it be cultural ?

[mike]

Here is my way of thinking: assume you are attracted to some aspect of people, lets use red hair as an example. It's obvious that JUST because someone has red hair you may or may not be attracted to them. It is less likely, but potentially possible, they are likewise attracted to you. Even if there is a mutual attraction, it would be absurd to think that means they immediately want to have a deep relationship with you, you're not the only guy in the world and it's quite likely they are already in a relationship. That said, there is little harm in attempting to strike up a conversation. She may or may not be interested, if not its not necessarily a rejection of you personally, she might actually be busy or uncomfortable talking to a strange person. Even if she seems interested, that does NOT mean she is interested in a deeper relationship, and it probably has little to do with you either way.

When it comes to an attraction that is potentially awkward, the situation is more likely to be full of emotional land mines. Or possibly not.

When the thing someone is attracted to is uncommon it tends to be more emotionally sensitive, therefore the best thing is to go slow & be patient. She just might become a good friend. Then again a deeper relationship could develop. Or not.

In other words: think of devs as normal humans, most of them are. Just because you have some attribute she finds attractive does not mean she is unusual in any way.

[jakewheelz]

Mar 4, 2021 8:47:00 GMT -5 infinatedreams said:

Mar 4, 2021 8:22:15 GMT -5 ayla said:

No it’s not a de-rail at all! I think this is a really important nuance. It’s so valuable to acknowledge this unrealistic split image of devs. Either we are repressed nymphomaniacs on the prowl for PWD or we are adamantly NOT sexually interested and merely curious (or sadly as you’ve been told [mention]lamara835 [/mention] “not a real dev”). Does this speak to a misunderstanding common to PWD? You straight guys, don’t you think it’s healthy to just be able to socialize with women who know you’re a straight man, even women you’re not sexually interested in? Imagine trying to connect to a woman you ARE sexually attracted to having never been able to just talk socially with a woman!

I think this misunderstanding is common to ALL men pwd or AB, despite the progress in equality the sense of male entitlement still runs strong. 
 
a PWD when met with a rejection or no interest in pursuing a sexual conversation/interaction may well react with the 'well you cant be a dev then' line, just the same as an AB guy when rejected gives it the 'well your obviously frigid or a lesbian' bollox.  Both are wrong and both are still common.  Yet still not all guys are like that.

I found PD and thought 'ooooh this is interesting' and did my best to understand devness and the individuality of devness and I tihnk ive had some really meaningful conversations with devs during my time here, sadly I think most PWD find PD and think 'oooh at last i will get laid' dont care about understanding devness and dont care about how it is quite specific and persoanl to each and every dev.  Those guys tend to not stick around too long or lurk in the background to pounce on every new dev who says hello with offers/requests for sex  and that can make some devs who may well be in the early stages of realising they 'arent alone' run to the hills.

So yeah some guys are more than happy to talk about themselves and their disability without any pre-conviced end game with a dev whether they are interested sexually or not.  But these guys just like the AB guys are in the minority.   Maybe that will change over time, but I wouldnt hold my breath over it.

So I'm not getting laid? 😜😜