And people wonder why Devs feel "ashamed"..

[prrrowr]

I've read several posts written by disabled members (usually new members at the time they post), asking "So, I just learned about devotees, tell me all the things. Justify your existence! Why are you all so secretive? Why is it so hard to find a devotee?"

Well, read this steaming pile of shit and you might get some inkling.

www.linkedin.com/pulse/what-you-need-know-devotees-disability-caitlin-conner

Even you, Alex Squire. Eukaryote Here's a quote from your 2020 article:

quadlifeblog.com/2015/11/28/devotees-disability-fetish/

"For example I’ve spoken to a dev who works as a carer at an SCI centre in the US. He loved quadriplegics, but resisted his feelings at work because he did not want to risk losing his job by being “unprofessional” towards the clients. Although it is debatable whether he should be working with vulnerable people at all."

Fuck that, Alex. Do you ask every person working with any other human being what their sexuality involves? What if a woman who is attracted to French men works at a French language center? Do you question her ability to remain professional? Do you question straight male bankers who are working with women they might find attractive, if they are capable of being professional at work, because you know, they might be attracted to one of those women?!
Do we question every person with a job if they are capable of staying professional at work?? god.

After this, you wrote "Personally, I have an open mind about devs. Girls who aren’t put off by my disability. I’ve had zero success on online dating websites, because in my cynical opinion most girls don’t want to date a disabled guy. So devs in this respect are great because they don’t see the disability as a negative. The ones I’ve spoken to are very open-minded about all aspects of disability and happy to answer questions. I don’t think devs should feel ashamed for feeling the way they do."

Alex, you aren't truly being open minded about devs. You have revealed your prejudice against us already, even saying that there are "bad devs" that everyone should be worried about. And yet, you think we shouldn't be ashamed of who and what we are? Consent is at the heart of any healthy relationship, but you seem to think that Devs are more likely than anyone else to behave non-consensually. Sounds like more biased bullshit to me, and I wish you hadn't mentioned Paradevo by name. We don't need your patronizing and paranoid endorsement. Barf. If you were truly being open-minded, you wouldn't view devotees as a group to turn to when you haven't had success with "normies". What you mean by "devs are great" is "devs are convenient, and if I had a choice they certainly aren't my first choice, because I don't trust they they can behave in a consentual manner, but I'm desperate, so I guess I'll 'explore'."

This brings me to another point - the issues you seem to be so afraid of: non-consent, objectification, being used for sexual gratification, stalking, harassment - these are all MEN problems. These are issues women (of all abilities and ethnicities) have to deal with every single fucking day. Recently I revived another thread where everyone discusses the fact that 7 out of 10 women are assaulted before they turn 40 - a gross underrepresentation of the number of women who are assaulted. It's probably 99% in reality. These aren't devotee issues, they are misogyny and patriarchy problems. The fact that you haven't recognized it yet just goes to show that you are still a member of the "ruling class", disabled or not.

[ayla]

prrrowr you are definitely coming in hot with this take, but I can't fault you for it! I really liked when you said the following:

If you were truly being open-minded, you wouldn't view devotees as a group to turn to when you haven't had success with "normies". What you mean by "devs are great" is "devs are convenient, and if I had a choice they certainly aren't my first choice, because I don't trust they they can behave in a consentual manner, but I'm desperate, so I guess I'll 'explore'."

Kind of a mic drop moment for me. When I was a more naive dev I was so desperate for pwd approval, I would have celebrated such a lukewarm endorsement. Now that I'm further along on my journey I can see that, while it feels good to negotiate consent with an individual pwd and have him affirm for me that my specific feelings are welcome, asking for pwd approval on the whole is not very helpful. We devs need to support one another and find acceptance from within. Then, we are less vulnerable to fuckboys who are settling in the way you describe here. 

[Sova]

Oh shit, Eukaryote got put on notice. The Dev Mafia just put a contract out on this man.

Automatic God Status to whoever brings back his heart in a colostomy bag 🤌

[prrrowr]

Sept 12, 2023 16:10:33 GMT -5 ayla said:

prrrowr you are definitely coming in hot with this take, but I can't fault you for it! I really liked when you said the following:




Kind of a mic drop moment for me. When I was a more naive dev I was so desperate for pwd approval, I would have celebrated such a lukewarm endorsement. Now that I'm further along on my journey I can see that, while it feels good to negotiate consent with an individual pwd and have him affirm for me that my specific feelings are welcome, asking for pwd approval on the whole is not very helpful. We devs need to support one another and find acceptance from within. Then, we are less vulnerable to fuckboys who are settling in the way you describe here. 

Yeah, you are right. Sorry.
The first link riled me up.
And to the second part, Absolutely. ❤️❤️❤️❤️
Love yourself, or you won't be able to love anyone else.

[prrrowr]

Sept 12, 2023 17:57:13 GMT -5 Sova said:

Oh shit, Eukaryote got put on notice. The Dev Mafia just put a contract out on this man.

Automatic God Status to whoever brings back his heart in a colostomy bag 🤌

😂😂😂
I'm calmer now. But I still stand behind everything I said.

[relladev]

Over the years I’ve made peace with the idea of being dev is somehow shameful and absolutely abnormal.
the underlying presumption here is disability is unwanted for the person who has it.

so compare with the example of French teacher or straight banker, the receiving ends of their affection obviously don’t object to being French or attractive women.
on the other hand, if we go down that road a bit further by saying someone is attracted to super skinny model body type, then it’s getting close to the dev thing. Because people generally don’t really want to starve themselves. And therefore you see such taste is also not proudly announced these days.

I’m not saying a dev pwd relationship is by default sinned
PWD don’t choose to be pwd and devs are not forcing anyone to voluntarily become disabled to satisfy our desire. So I’m okay with the idea of a PWD turn to dev if run out of non dev dating pool. I personally turn to AB guys when I can’t get any wheelers. It’s human nature to have priority and back ups. There’s no crime in wanting company.

but if the relationship is getting somewhere, I would ask myself if there’s a miracle cure and he walks and runs will I still want to be with this man? The answer should be yes to proceed.
Same to the PWD. If you don’t feel like being with this certain dev girl if you could walk again, then you are just happily exploiting each other (which is also totally fine as two consenting adults!)
no one is martyr or evil here. All I’m saying is just make sure both sides are on the same page if it’s heading serious direction.

[relladev]

And I’m an Asian woman so the whole men objectifying women topic is getting old. Only decades ago concubine was legal…
If any male PWD feels harassed by a female dev, think about how afraid a female PWD would be facing a male dev.

[dutchdev]

Maybe put a warning on this one, it is really one of the worst I have read

[prrrowr]

Sept 13, 2023 2:02:46 GMT -5 dutchdev said:

Maybe put a warning on this one, it is really one of the worst I have read

On that first link? I did call it a steaming pile of shit.. 😆

[prrrowr]

Sept 12, 2023 22:48:57 GMT -5 relladev said:

Over the years I’ve made peace with the idea of being dev is somehow shameful and absolutely abnormal.
the underlying presumption here is disability is unwanted for the person who has it.

so compare with the example of French teacher or straight banker, the receiving ends of their affection obviously don’t object to being French or attractive women.
on the other hand, if we go down that road a bit further by saying someone is attracted to super skinny model body type, then it’s getting close to the dev thing. Because people generally don’t really want to starve themselves. And therefore you see such taste is also not proudly announced these days.

I’m not saying a dev pwd relationship is by default sinned
PWD don’t choose to be pwd and devs are not forcing anyone to voluntarily become disabled to satisfy our desire. So I’m okay with the idea of a PWD turn to dev if run out of non dev dating pool. I personally turn to AB guys when I can’t get any wheelers. It’s human nature to have priority and back ups. There’s no crime in wanting company.

but if the relationship is getting somewhere, I would ask myself if there’s a miracle cure and he walks and runs will I still want to be with this man? The answer should be yes to proceed.
Same to the PWD. If you don’t feel like being with this certain dev girl if you could walk again, then you are just happily exploiting each other (which is also totally fine as two consenting adults!)
no one is martyr or evil here. All I’m saying is just make sure both sides are on the same page if it’s heading serious direction.

You make some excellent, valid points. But here's the thing - I am not ashamed anymore. You don't have to be, either. It isn't shameful, it's beautiful, to see beauty and sexy-ness where other people might not. We are all miracles, all of us. I honestly love being a devotee. PWD exist, I didn't create them, and not all of them wish they were not disabled. Many people have had a disability since birth, and wouldn't want to change something so integral to who they are, and that has played such a big role in forming their worldview, personality, perspective, etc.
So, the crux of it is - Does a PWD love and accept themselves? If not, they will never love a devotee. (And I'm not talking about "would you take a magic cure if you could." One can love and accept themselves fully, and still want to take that magic cure if it were possible.)
I personally do not want to be someone's if-all-else-fails backup choice. I don't want to be with someone who has to figure out how to view me and my sexuality as tolerable or acceptable. I want to be a first choice, I want to be loved and celebrated the way I would love and celebrate my partner. I don't need some begrudging endorsement of devoteeism to feel validated. Let's revel and indulge in our uniqueness and idiosyncrasies together! I know what I am, I understand myself, and I'm very much done with justifying my existence. No one understands the complexity of human sexuality, and why such a wide and wild spectrum of attraction exists, not really. So, fuck all the judgment and negativity - let your light shine, ladies and gentlemen.

"You do not have to be good.
You do not have to walk on your knees
for a hundred miles through the desert repenting.
You only have to let the soft animal of your body
love what it loves.
Tell me about despair, yours, and I will tell you mine.
Meanwhile the world goes on.
Meanwhile the sun and the clear pebbles of the rain
are moving across the landscapes,
over the prairies and the deep trees,
the mountains and the rivers.
Meanwhile the wild geese, high in the clean blue air,
are heading home again.
Whoever you are, no matter how lonely,
the world offers itself to your imagination,
calls to you like the wild geese, harsh and exciting -
over and over announcing your place
in the family of things." -Mary Oliver

Edit - let your light shine anonymously if you wish. 😂😂😂 The world isn't ready for us, as evidenced by that first article. I don't want any devs fired from their jobs or made into pariahs out there in the real world. A girl's still gotta eat!

[sungod]

We can all find so much wrong with both of these articles. Just to target one ridiculous item, a snippet from the first linked article:

Next, pay attention if things don't line up or make sense. If someone approaches you stating they are a medical professional and begin to ask you questions about your disability, ask them a few medical questions. Start simple like "Oh cool, where did you go to school," "Love that for you, where do you practice?" These questions give you the tools to vet them and do some research.

What BS. What dev approaches a PWD, pretending to be a medical professional to ask inappropriate, prying questions? If a dev did approach me IRL and engaged in a real, knowledgeable conversation related to spinal cord injuries, that's fantastic! Someone is only allowed to have knowledge about your type of disability if they are a medical professional?? Who doesn't feel a little impressed and engaged when someone asks a question that isn't, "Do you have to charge your chair every day?"

[Eukaryote]

I think you have misunderstood what I am saying in the article, so I will clarify a few things.

Regarding the guy working at the SCI centre, I personally don’t think it is wrong and am not advocating asking people about their sexual orientations at all. I said it was “debatable” because people reading the post would have differing opinions. I didn’t say that I personally thought it was wrong. I should have clarified my personal opinion better.

I don’t feel prejudiced towards devs and don’t feel that they are more susceptible to unethical behaviour. I’m saying that SOME devs act unethically. I’m not saying they are all bad, like the other article you linked. I’m not saying that this kind of behaviour is limited to devs, and I know that it’s a problem in society in general.

I definitely don’t view devs as “convenient” as they are hard to find, so they are definitely not the easier choice. I’ve never even met one in real life that I’m aware of. As I said earlier, I don’t believe that devs are more likely to be unethical or nonconsensual than anyone else. Sorry if I gave you that impression.

So I don’t view “normies” as a first choice and devs as second choice. I don’t separate people based on whether they are a dev or not. I judge people based on whether we get on well together or not. Based on whether they are a nice person or not. It’s not like I have tried “normal” people, and now I’m trying devs instead. I’ve interacted with both for years and will continue to do so.

The other article is A LOT more critical of devs than I am, and in my opinion, more worthy of your anger. I’m actually being positive about devs in my post so I’m surprised that it’s provoked such a strong reaction from you. In the 8 years since it was posted, and after almost 14,000 views it has never had a negative response like that.

My intention in writing this article was not to attack anyone or be patronising. It was just to raise awareness and stimulate discussion. I apologise if what I wrote was not clear enough and I apologise for offending you.
I hope this helps to clarify things, but please let me know if you want me to explain anything further.

[prrrowr]

Sept 13, 2023 10:18:26 GMT -5 Eukaryote said:

I think you have misunderstood what I am saying in the article, so I will clarify a few things.

Thanks for clarifying, but dude, it sounds like backtracking. I see you edited your article, so.. thank you? I do appreciate that you can take criticism and try to do better. ❤️

You wrote about your opinion at the time, with detail. If your feelings have changed since you wrote your article, that's great! Maybe it's time to write a new one? Saying that you don't personally think devs working with vulnerable people is "debatable", after clearly stating that in black and white, comes across as disingenuous. Again, maybe your feelings have changed, but you said what you said. *And now I see you have erased that part, which I appreciate.

Also, you didn't frame the issues of "bad devs" as something that happens in the general population. You didn't mention misogyny or patriarchy. You didn't talk about how this is a problem with unhealthy, unbalanced MEN who pursue someone they are interested in, in general. You were specifically writing about devotees, "Bad Devs", and talked about them as being predatory, manipulative, creepy, nonconsensual, and objectifiers. Nowhere did you say "These issues have everything to do with misogyny and patriarchy and understanding consent, and almost nothing to do with a devotee's sexuality."

You probably haven't heard any negative feedback since it was published, because the target audience was other disabled guys (right?), and I wonder if any devotees read it thoroughly before I did.
Perhaps things have changed, in terms of devotee self-acceptance, as a community, since you wrote it? Maybe the Me Too movement has brought more awareness to problematic and dangerous male behavior, that used to be attributed to other things or factors?

I do apologize for conflating your article with the other one. I was so enraged and offended from reading that other one first, and I came down on your article hard. I don't think my criticisms were incorrect though.

[Eukaryote]

it sounds like backtracking. I see you edited your article

I'm not backtracking, I'm just trying to explain things better. I haven't edited the article yet but I'm going to rephrase some things to make the wording better.

"Also, you didn't frame the issues of "bad devs" as something that happens in the general population. You didn't mention misogyny or patriarchy. You didn't talk about how this is a problem with unhealthy, unbalanced MEN who pursue someone they are interested in, in general. You were specifically writing about devotees, "Bad Devs", and talked about them as being predatory, manipulative, creepy, nonconsensual, and objectifiers. Nowhere did you say "These issues have everything to do with misogyny and patriarchy and understanding consent, and almost nothing to do with a devotee's sexuality."

I didn't mention misogyny and patriarchy in the article because I think that bad devs can be women too. I don't think it's black and white. But I agree that it's probably more prevalent among men. The article was specifically about devotees and it didn't occur to me to link it to society in general.

Saying that you don't personally think devs working with vulnerable people is "debatable", after clearly stating that in black and white, comes across as disingenuous. Again, maybe your feelings have changed, but you said what you said.

when I said it was debatable I wasn't talking about my personal opinion, but I'm going to reword it to make that clear.

You probably haven't heard any negative feedback since it was published, because the target audience was other disabled guys (right?), and I wonder if any devotees read it thoroughly before I did.

At least one dev commented on the article which you can read below the post. I think it's likely that more devotees have read it because it's been linked to on this site before and I get a lot of traffic from people googling things like "disability fetish". Regarding my audience, according to my analytics data since 2017 58% of my readers are female, which is 22,000 people.  15,000 male.

[malibu]

Sept 12, 2023 22:48:57 GMT -5 relladev said:

 So I’m okay with the idea of a PWD turn to dev if run out of non dev dating pool.

I think you probably didn't mean it that way but just to clarify, a PWD/dev relationship is not necessarily a last resort type of situation there are many wonderful devs and PWDs who just clicked and have a good and meaningful connection. Get to know your fellow devs and you'll find many wonderful people worthy of more than just being a last resort