|
Post by zacc on Nov 15, 2023 0:42:39 GMT -5
So I was talking to my friend about Devness. He's kind of an SJW (Social Justice Warrior) and he could not understand it. He had the age old idea that it was a fetish and manipulative of disabled people. I tried to explain it as an attraction/preference just like liking tall dudes more, or curvy women, or things like being "Sapio Sexual" (or attraction to thoughtful folks). Don't know if it convinced him though.
What have you said to explain Devness to your friends who haven't heard of it before? Like if we made a wiki page that was accurate, and not dev bashing, what would it say?
|
|
|
Post by Braced4Impact on Nov 15, 2023 11:00:46 GMT -5
The problem is, devness is as unique to the dev as being disabled is to a PWD. I've met some devs where it leans more toward the fetish/sexual side of things, and others where it's a lifestyle akin to a sexual identity, and for others, I've seen it as merely a curiosity where it doesn't consume their lives or even sexual desires, but there's a definite level of attraction. So, to try to come up with a carte-blanche description of devs is like the same for PWDs. A blind person's experience is different than a quad, an amp, polio, SCI, MD, hearing impairment, etc. I think the best thing to do is if you find someone who is a dev and another party is curious about why or what a dev is, get the answer from the dev themself.
|
|
|
Post by zacc on Nov 15, 2023 11:26:53 GMT -5
The problem is, devness is as unique to the dev as being disabled is to a PWD. I've met some devs where it leans more toward the fetish/sexual side of things, and others where it's a lifestyle akin to a sexual identity, and for others, I've seen it as merely a curiosity where it doesn't consume their lives or even sexual desires, but there's a definite level of attraction. So, to try to come up with a carte-blanche description of devs is like the same for PWDs. A blind person's experience is different than a quad, an amp, polio, SCI, MD, hearing impairment, etc. I think the best thing to do is if you find someone who is a dev and another party is curious about why or what a dev is, get the answer from the dev themself. I get all that, I guess my question should have been how do you counter negative views of devs your friends may have? Like what are good resources I could send them? I know there's some podcast episodes about devness, maybe those are good to share. Also I used to have a blog site with my ex but it's currently defunct, it had some good info from cilantro though.
|
|
|
Post by Braced4Impact on Nov 15, 2023 11:40:51 GMT -5
The problem is, devness is as unique to the dev as being disabled is to a PWD. I've met some devs where it leans more toward the fetish/sexual side of things, and others where it's a lifestyle akin to a sexual identity, and for others, I've seen it as merely a curiosity where it doesn't consume their lives or even sexual desires, but there's a definite level of attraction. So, to try to come up with a carte-blanche description of devs is like the same for PWDs. A blind person's experience is different than a quad, an amp, polio, SCI, MD, hearing impairment, etc. I think the best thing to do is if you find someone who is a dev and another party is curious about why or what a dev is, get the answer from the dev themself. I get all that, I guess my question should have been how do you counter negative views of devs your friends may have? Like what are good resources I could send them? I know there's some podcast episodes about devness, maybe those are good to share. Also I used to have a blog site with my ex but it's currently defunct, it had some good info from cilantro though. It probably depends on the negative viewpoint and creating a custom reaction to it. Let's say the person is upset or concerned a dev is objectifying them and is attracted to them simply because of the disability; the problem is, there can be some devs who operate like that, but it's important to specify not all, in fact most, don't. Let's be honest here, it's uncomfortable to admit it, but to some level a dev is indeed objectifying a PWD. That's not a real issue, because we as humans do so with everyone. We categorize people by their race/color, religion, height, weight, occupation, hobbies, and so on. I think what concerns people is the vulnerability aspect. They worry that the objectification of a PWD is objectifying a person who is unable to fend for themselves. That's an internalized bias. They think that the PWD doesn't have the wherewithal to say no to a dev and that the dev could be predatory or using the PWD. It doesn't help when you see sugar babies that are dating folks 50 years their senior with the obvious intention of getting on the will when the person dies. They may think a dev has those same motives for dating a PWD. Or the helplessness aspect as a sexual turn-on, they may see that as predatory. The sad matter of things is, some people you won't convince. You could show them anecdotal evidence, empirical evidence and personal opinions as to why a dev isn't the negative aspect a person perceives them to be, and they might nod their head and agree with you openly, but still feel deep down inside it isn't right. There's really nothing you can do about that. The most important thing, though, isn't their opinion. While it's nice if they change their mind, the only two people's opinion on whether a dev is a good match for you is between you and the dev.
|
|
|
Post by Dani on Nov 15, 2023 15:26:53 GMT -5
Unfortunately, I've experienced people who claim to be so open-minded and tolerant are actually not always like that. If someone has a bad view of something and they are not open to hearing other's experiences or explanations, it's impossible to change their mind. It makes me angry, and I kind of stopped explaining myself and what devs are if I get a weird vibe from someone and they are not as open-minded as they claim to be. Besides Paradevo and Wheeler Connect, I don't think there are any good places to point them to. Devs don't have their own groups or explanation sites, not that I know of. Fetlife is a cesspool of weird stalkerish types and fake profiles, so it's not a good place to learn about devs. Other than that, I really don't know. I've also experienced that even a PWD claiming to be curious or open-minded to devs doesn't want to be associated with me on my author profile, where I'm open and visible as a devotee. So, there are still many PWD who may say they are okay with devs, but really they are not.
Is your friend also disabled?
|
|
|
Post by dutchdev on Nov 15, 2023 17:14:58 GMT -5
I doubt it is easy to dispel, maybe point out that thinking it must be due to “wrong” intentions is a bit ableist and says more about his view than ours. If he truly is a SJW that must rub the wrong way 🤣, and after some initial push back may make him reconsider.
|
|
|
Post by justmae on Nov 16, 2023 0:37:41 GMT -5
The most likeness I can compare it to is being attracted to someone from a different culture - they LIVE a different lifestyle, maybe various family members are in their home, they eat meals differently, their clothing is different, the way they look and interact with the world is different. It's much more than an attraction to the LOOK of a disabled person without accepting that all facets of life are touched by disability. Being a dev to me is about being able to see and interact with life DIFFERENTLY and together. While it's most definitely sexual as well, it's about the whole person. Perhaps being a dev, for me, is being open and accepting that I am a relative stranger to your world and exploring the ways that the PWD and I's lives can be navigated together. Also, there is a HUGE mind shift for me when I realized that it's really less about the disability itself than it is cherishing the differences in our worlds and being absolutely fascinated by and LOVING those.
Perhaps this shift works for your friend? Imagine an immigrant is marginalized for the way they look and live their lives, a social outlier, and then finding someone who not only accepts their differences but is completely infatuated by and accepting of them.
Dani has said it before, just because a person is disabled doesn't make them instantly attractive, there still needs to be chemistry both emotionally and physically as well.
|
|
|
Post by lavly on Nov 16, 2023 3:34:54 GMT -5
To explain what a dev is has always been hard for me. Trying to put words to something that is super personal places me in a vulnerable position. I have been out of this dev scene for years, so i havnt had to address it or explain it. However recently when I came back I found it even harder to find the words for my sexual make-up.
If you have ever talked to me you will know that i talk a lottttttt. i am super wordy about every topic. But the truth is that i am very private with the things that matter to me. As in the things that are hard to talk about like dev stuff. When i do talk about these topics i will pick someone i feel safe with. Someone I trust and ask them to help me explore the topic or help me find the words.
So I wouldn't ever talk about devness to a friend that is not a dev. I don't admit that I met my hubby here. The need to explain devness only happens when i am talking to other pwds. And even then I very realy let the convo reach the space where i am explaining devness. Like I said , I will only do that when I feel super safe.
However even though i haven't been around in ages when i do come back i find that places and spaces like this is where i belong. It doesn't take long for me to make new friendships and new connections. With devs and wheelers alike.
It feels great to be able to explore parts of me with other ppl who one, know about the topic and two are open to talking about the topic. Because let's face it the isn't a representation of devness in the world at large. So its not like you can learn about it in other spaces.
However there has been so many times when I realize that my perception of safety is inaccurate. i agree with what dani said about guys with a disability coming to you and saying they are “ fine “ with me being a dev but really deep down they are not ok with it at all.
When i finally do get clued on that they are not ok with it , well its too late and iam completely crushed by that thought. The idea can really throw me for a loop and can do a number on my sense of self.
At the start I will give it a gallant effort to explain my position … my devness. But then i shut down and i completely stop talking about disability as a whole. I find that i will take the convo to anything but the disability to make sure that person feels safe and that they dont feel uncomfortable and a lot of this happens at my own detriment. As in, I end up taking bullshit that is just not true. Let them say things that cut me deep and hurt me. I think i dont defend devness at that point cos i dont believe i have a right to a position. The guy is in pain and his feelings are stronger then mine. my sexul states shouldnt even come into play.
But at that point I definitely do feel like the punching bag. There is no use to interject because like I said The Guilt of being a Dev is so strong that it will allow the guy to completely misquote and mix up my words to make me sound like the worst human.
I might give it one more go … say something like as a dev i dont want you to be in pain … i do want recovery for you … but by then there is really no point. No getting throw.
I know I have gotten off topic here. But what i am trying to say is that maybe its best if your friend thinks we are not cool ppl lol. We have enough pwd who tell us that they are fine with devs until they crush us. Can cause lasting scars. Even to old timers like myself.
Last of all i dont want this to be a pwd bash. Not at all. I know that devs have a lot of power and influence in this space as well. Our words can also cause lasting damage and pain. Even with the best intentions we can really hurt a guy who is also exploring his identity. Especially if they are new to the disability.
|
|
|
Post by zacc on Nov 17, 2023 0:11:51 GMT -5
Unfortunately, I've experienced people who claim to be so open-minded and tolerant are actually not always like that. If someone has a bad view of something and they are not open to hearing other's experiences or explanations, it's impossible to change their mind. It makes me angry, and I kind of stopped explaining myself and what devs are if I get a weird vibe from someone and they are not as open-minded as they claim to be. Besides Paradevo and Wheeler Connect, I don't think there are any good places to point them to. Devs don't have their own groups or explanation sites, not that I know of. Fetlife is a cesspool of weird stalkerish types and fake profiles, so it's not a good place to learn about devs. Other than that, I really don't know. I've also experienced that even a PWD claiming to be curious or open-minded to devs doesn't want to be associated with me on my author profile, where I'm open and visible as a devotee. So, there are still many PWD who may say they are okay with devs, but really they are not. Is your friend also disabled? My friend is not physically disabled but has severe ADHD which he describes as a disability. But I think you're right that some people are not worth convincing. He is very stubborn in his views even though he's all about people being themselves/letting their freak flag fly, and his being gay. With all that you'd think he'd get it. I think he had made up his mind even before I started to explain it.
|
|
|
Post by ayla on Nov 17, 2023 14:13:42 GMT -5
Interesting. It sounds like your friend has somewhat of a victim mindset, what with him seeing his ADHD as on par with a physical disability. Maybe he is more attuned to the vulnerability aspect of disability rather than other aspects, and is projecting HIS view onto devs (i.e. devs must also see disability as primarily a vulnerability, and therefore their attraction is related to exploiting that vulnerability somehow). I find this is a common root of misunderstanding. It seems very, very hard for non-dev people to understand that when we devs look at someone with a disability, we DON'T primarily see vulnerability, weakness, someone who will be desperate/easy to exploit. We see, "wow that guy is really attractive." We have a totally different association with disability... unattainable, exciting, mysterious, alluring, fascinating, rich and nuanced... So many people ask "why" we are attracted to pwd and I think that question is really misleading, it sort of assumes that there must be some motive for the attraction. No motive. Just attraction!
|
|
|
Post by BA on Nov 24, 2023 23:58:36 GMT -5
To explain what a dev is has always been hard for me. Trying to put words to something that is super personal places me in a vulnerable position. I have been out of this dev scene for years, so i havnt had to address it or explain it. However recently when I came back I found it even harder to find the words for my sexual make-up. If you have ever talked to me you will know that i talk a lottttttt. i am super wordy about every topic. But the truth is that i am very private with the things that matter to me. As in the things that are hard to talk about like dev stuff. When i do talk about these topics i will pick someone i feel safe with. Someone I trust and ask them to help me explore the topic or help me find the words. So I wouldn't ever talk about devness to a friend that is not a dev. I don't admit that I met my hubby here. The need to explain devness only happens when i am talking to other pwds. And even then I very realy let the convo reach the space where i am explaining devness. Like I said , I will only do that when I feel super safe. However even though i haven't been around in ages when i do come back i find that places and spaces like this is where i belong. It doesn't take long for me to make new friendships and new connections. With devs and wheelers alike. It feels great to be able to explore parts of me with other ppl who one, know about the topic and two are open to talking about the topic. Because let's face it the isn't a representation of devness in the world at large. So its not like you can learn about it in other spaces. However there has been so many times when I realize that my perception of safety is inaccurate. i agree with what dani said about guys with a disability coming to you and saying they are “ fine “ with me being a dev but really deep down they are not ok with it at all. When i finally do get clued on that they are not ok with it , well its too late and iam completely crushed by that thought. The idea can really throw me for a loop and can do a number on my sense of self. At the start I will give it a gallant effort to explain my position … my devness. But then i shut down and i completely stop talking about disability as a whole. I find that i will take the convo to anything but the disability to make sure that person feels safe and that they dont feel uncomfortable and a lot of this happens at my own detriment. As in, I end up taking bullshit that is just not true. Let them say things that cut me deep and hurt me. I think i dont defend devness at that point cos i dont believe i have a right to a position. The guy is in pain and his feelings are stronger then mine. my sexul states shouldnt even come into play. But at that point I definitely do feel like the punching bag. There is no use to interject because like I said The Guilt of being a Dev is so strong that it will allow the guy to completely misquote and mix up my words to make me sound like the worst human. I might give it one more go … say something like as a dev i dont want you to be in pain … i do want recovery for you … but by then there is really no point. No getting throw. I know I have gotten off topic here. But what i am trying to say is that maybe its best if your friend thinks we are not cool ppl lol. We have enough pwd who tell us that they are fine with devs until they crush us. Can cause lasting scars. Even to old timers like myself. Last of all i dont want this to be a pwd bash. Not at all. I know that devs have a lot of power and influence in this space as well. Our words can also cause lasting damage and pain. Even with the best intentions we can really hurt a guy who is also exploring his identity. Especially if they are new to the disability. Everything you said here resonates deeply with me. You’ve really captured my feelings. I do not have a single friend who knows about my preferences. I do not feel that I can fully explain and I am of an age where such things were not really discussed anyway.
|
|
kro354
Full Member
Posts: 139
Gender: Male
Dev Status: Devotee
Relationship Status: Single
|
Post by kro354 on Nov 25, 2023 11:19:04 GMT -5
My friend is not physically disabled but has severe ADHD which he describes as a disability. But I think you're right that some people are not worth convincing. He is very stubborn in his views even though he's all about people being themselves/letting their freak flag fly, and his being gay. With all that you'd think he'd get it. I think he had made up his mind even before I started to explain it. Unfortunately alot of gays (and so-called social justice warriors) are the judgiest (is that a word?) of them all. My experience in the gay world is that we often want perfection and move on the second we don't find it, and tear into others who dare to have an opinion different from their own. (I like to think I'm much better in this department, but I'm biased People on the far left are just as narrow-minded as people on the far right about accepting people who don't fit their own definition of what's acceptable. And those definitions are not shaped by reality. So, if someone thinks that PWDs are vulnerable poor souls who need our help with everything, then the idea of devs just flies in the face of their preconceived definition and that's what's harder to change.
|
|
vvulfie
Junior Member
Posts: 56
Gender: Male
Dev Status: Disabled
Relationship Status: Single
|
Post by vvulfie on Nov 28, 2023 23:31:11 GMT -5
I feel like there needs to be a way to introduce it sort of introduce it lighthearted almost jokingly maybe, in a way that illustrates it relatable as an interest and then work it in more seriously
|
|
|
Post by ayla on Nov 29, 2023 12:44:31 GMT -5
I don't like pwd "for" any reason. Pretty sure the same is true for most devs. I like pwd for the same reasons anyone is attracted to anyone. My attraction is just a little outside the norm probably because of psychological reasons while I was growing up... again, same as most people. Alain de Botton had a great essay/short book about this www.blinkist.com/en/books/how-to-think-more-about-sex-en
|
|
|
Post by Dr. BiPAP Sachin on Nov 29, 2023 19:10:17 GMT -5
I'm sorry zacc, but I don't think this friend of yours is much of a social justice warrior if that's the sort of attitude he harbors towards devs. He certainly doesn't seem open-minded about them either. I doubt he's manipulative himself, but I bet he probably has some fetishes himself, lol!! Please don't tell him I said that, haha.
|
|