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Post by faith on Nov 9, 2008 14:35:16 GMT -5
I was recently reading a some comments about men devotees from women in chairs. It is obvious that the women have a VERY negative view of men devs. From some of the stories I can understand why.
As a female dev and long time reader and poster to this site, I have not seen nor read much, if any, negative feelings toward female devs.
Here are my questions:
*Have you ever read anything here (or elsewhere) that makes you uncomfortable with female devs? What was it?
*And why do you think the perception of female devs is so much different than that of male devs? Do you think men are more open to the idea of things that fall outside what our society views as "normal" than women? Or do you think male devs have such a bad reputation strictly because of their aggressive (sometimes almost stalking) actions?
Hope that makes sense. I woke up not feeling myself- don't know how clearly my mind is working this morning!
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Post by mrjefffurz on Nov 9, 2008 16:56:51 GMT -5
ive read alot of negative things about female devs @ the crip websites,,,mostly from crip women who see ya'll as a threat, imho...
from those same websites and a period where i was part of a little group who spied on male devs (and 1 women we thought was deving on 1 of the members b/f) i find male devs as a group very unsavory for their aggressive activities,,,the sneaky picture taking,,,the copy/pasting of cripgrrls pix from the websites,,,the posing as crips so as to gaim acceptance in those websites,,,
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Post by BA on Nov 9, 2008 19:16:05 GMT -5
I know plenty of the women on here have said that they would love and care about their partner for who they are, not what they are, but for me there is still a slightly uneasy feeling about whether that would be true love for the man and not just some novelty value. I wanted to say that beause I know that from what I have read most of you girls have never had a relationship with a wheeler. And I wonder how committed you would be to truly spending the rest of your life with one of us. That is the trouble with 'coming out' to you guys about being a dev. I always surmise that somewhere deep down inside you will have doubt about whether the relationship is based on true love and committment. I am a dev who has had relationships with both wheelers and non-wheeling men. For me, there is no "novelty" factor. I am more sexually attracted to a wheeler. The only thing that has any bearing on whether or not I would/could be committed and in love for the long term would be how we mesh in all the other areas (mind, heart, soul). I have no doubt about my level of 'forever committment'. Being in or out of a chair has nothing to do with it. For me, it is just a turn on and would make the sexual/sensual aspects of the relationship that much stronger. |
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Post by devogirl on Nov 9, 2008 20:01:44 GMT -5
That is the trouble with 'coming out' to you guys about being a dev. I always surmise that somewhere deep down inside you will have doubt about whether the relationship is based on true love and committment. Yes, exactly! I have had wheeler guys break up with me because they didn't believe I really loved them, that it wasn't just the novelty factor. And I have also gotten some negative feedback from disabled guys I have met IRL. This board is kind of isolated from that, for whatever reason. I've also been increasingly irritated by the accusation that we are "only" interested in the fantasy, as if that makes us bad people. Yes, it is a problem if a dev projects her fantasies onto a guy and doesn't engage with him as a real person. I agree that's bad behavior, but it's hardly a dev-specific problem, people do it all the time. But if a dev enjoys her fantasies, ahem, on her own, how is that hurting you? We're not socially obliged to date any one of you individually, just as you wheeler guys are not obliged to be with a dev. I think the real problem is that when a wheeler guy finds out about devs, he sometimes thinks it means his perfect partner is lurking somewhere on this board, and when she fails to materialize, it means we all are hypocrites. Whatever, I don't expect every wheeler to be interested in me, lack of interest doesn't mean anti-dev. Sorry that turned into kind of a rant. No offense to you Fubb, it's not directed at you personally--you seem like a good guy. To get back to the original question, why do male devs have a worse rep than females, I think it's because of the aggressive things some of them do, because males are conditioned to be more aggressive. It's basic gender bias, but it does work in our favor, I guess. |
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Phil
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Post by Phil on Nov 9, 2008 20:32:42 GMT -5
The male devs are often aggressive, some to the extent of being stalkers. I had a dis g/f years ago that had to deal with that. It creeped her out, as a stalker would any woman. And from what I've seen on the Internet, this isn't too uncommon. The guys are often relentless and pull tricks such as they'll lie about being dis themselves to gain trust and access, take candid photos, stuff like that.
I doubt any woman would feel comfortable if they found their stolen or candid pics pasted on the Internet, dis or not.
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Post by devogirl on Nov 9, 2008 21:42:47 GMT -5
Whew! Glad to hear it. And I think you are absolutely right, there is a lot of fear on both sides.
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Post by dolly on Nov 9, 2008 22:31:30 GMT -5
from what i have seen over the past few years in other online places, apart from this board, it appears that all devs (male and female) seem to be pretty much painted with the same wide brush. re: from what I have read most of you girls have never had a relationship with a wheeler i just wanted to say that for some of us that isn't from lack of desire or even opportunity. i've met and known several wheelers with whom i could have pursued a relationship if that's all i was looking for. i also agree with what AB and devogirl said in their posts. about everything. |
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Post by matisse on Nov 9, 2008 22:46:09 GMT -5
*Have you ever read anything here (or elsewhere) that makes you uncomfortable with female devs? Nope. And why do you think the perception of female devs is so much different than that of male devs? The aggressiveness is part of it. But it's also because most women have that the "love-me-for-me" romantic notion of love. For men, love tends to be more practical. I don't understand the hesitation I have read about some men having. If the doubt just doesn't seem to go away, either the guy has some insecurities, or the woman probably just isn't a good fit and the dev-ness is just one issue out of several. Call me naive but based on my relationship with my wife as compared to prior relationships, I just don't think someone would be able to fake love with me (orgasms, however, are a different matter.........). |
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Post by Ouch on Nov 10, 2008 11:45:03 GMT -5
I think AB and devogirl really explain it well, and it corrolates with my findings...
...male devs are 'male' first and foremost, and especially with such a 'limited quarry', they get into 'hunter mode', and with our social norms of today, that turns into 'stalking'...it's bad instincts going uncontrolled.
Female devs get the better look here, at least, I think because we wheeler-guys tend to at least have a subtle instinct to want the devs, therefore, we're not going to necessarily badmouth them, because of instinctual desires...in that sense we're still the 'hunters'.
I've seen some circles of female devs that have been equally as socially distasteful as the male devs...when there is a strong, longing, unfulfilled desire for something...instinct tends to take control no matter who you are.
There's not too much that has me really uncomfortable with devs in general, both male and female...just some need to learn how to conduct themselves better, which has been the problem with the male devs in general. I do think, subtly, even on here...some of the female devs engage in similar behaviour that could be seen as aggressiveness/unsavoury attitudes/pracitices in a more veiled form...but most I've seen are perfectly rational and intelligent about things. The only thing I see as a 'problem', and it's not really a problem, more a 'pity' (there's a better way to say it, but I can't think of it right off the top of my head now), that Devs feel like they have to hide or keep quiet about their feelings (altogether, not just the people here)...but that's more of a personal problem than anything...and I think AB really explains a big reason why I think some of them don't like to be too vocal.
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Phil
Junior Member
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Post by Phil on Nov 10, 2008 14:07:08 GMT -5
I'll probably catch heat with this reply.  With all due respect to AB and devogirl, if you're in a relationship that you can't be yourself in out of fear of what someone will think, there's a problem there. If you are fearful of expressing your desires or discussing a fantasy, or if someone dumps you because you do open up - then that wasn't the right person for you and that relationship was on shaky ground to begin with. People in love accept, they don't judge. I hate to be blunt, and those remarks weren't meant to be hurtful, but it seems to me that the axe was going to fall eventually in that relationship at some point. Without trust and acceptance to be able to openly be yourself without the fear of being judged or dumped, you have nothing. It's just a facade and you are probably better off out of it and not wasting time or effort in something that's doomed for failure. In that way, strange as it might seem, it's similar to having a disability while in a relationship. Dis folks want and need people that accept people for whom they are. We require people that are willing to look beyond the disability, and see the person themselves. I don't profess to be an expert, and I'm not Dear Abby. These are just my opinions, but I think you're both better off away from such people. Opinion number 2, lol, is about the justification of male dev behaviors. It seems that people are chalking-up the actions of some of these guys as being tied to typical male aggressiveness. I'm sorry, but I don't buy that. I'm a guy and I'm pretty aggressive at times. Aggressive men approach a woman they see interest in and "make a pitch". That's what aggressive men do. They don't hide behind the bushes, they're in your face. If there's an interest, there will be no doubt. You will know it. This sneaking around isn't aggressive behavior, it is obsessive behavior. Certainly not all male devotees act this way. I don't mean to imply that. I know of 2 dis women that are in committed relationships with male devotees. The men were honest about it and both couples seem very happy. Unfortunately, the few can ruin things for the many as enough guys have in the past (or do now) act this way, and it is totally unacceptable. |
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Post by faith on Nov 10, 2008 15:26:29 GMT -5
Fubb- What do you mean by this statement? .... " And I wonder how committed you would be to truly spending the rest of your life with one of us."
Maybe I am reading more into it that I should, but why would you our commitment to a wheeler be any different than a commitment to a non-wheeler?
Besides the sexual factor, wouldn't everything else be the same? I understand the few people who "might" be together as a novelty thing, but once that is past, a long term relationship would be the same as any other, no?
Phil- "Without trust and acceptance to be able to openly be yourself without the fear of being judged or dumped, you have nothing."
I totally agree.
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Post by devogirl on Nov 10, 2008 21:00:21 GMT -5
Phil, no offense taken, but I think you misunderstood what I was talking about. These were not relationships where I kept the dev thing secret, then got dumped after a big reveal--I agree that's a recipe for disaster. No, these were two long(ish)-term relationships with two different wheeler guys who knew from the beginning that I'm a dev. I actually met them on devo websites. At the beginning of the relationship each time they insisted they were ok with it, but once the relationship got more serious they started in with the little digs which all added up to the same thing: you're only interested in me because you're a devotee. It started as just little comments, which kept getting bigger and bigger and more disruptive to the relationship. And then when we broke up, that was the reason both of them gave, and in quite vindictive terms. Whatever, good riddance to both of them. It was clear that they both had deep-seated insecurities that prevented them from believing they were truly desirable. But it still really hurts at the time to be told "I accept you as a devotee--oh wait, no, I think you're sick in the head." It makes it hard to trust someone again the next time around.
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Post by roger888 on Nov 11, 2008 2:26:20 GMT -5
With my very limited knowledge of devs I will try & answers faiths question.
From what I have seen & heard male devs fall into 2 categories.The first is they want to satisfy their needs at whatever costs,the second either know they should be giving the female wheeler some respect but can't quite control themselves enough to make it convincing.In the end,they make themselves look insincerely polite or creepy.
Female devs are concerned about the why,what & how of devness.From a wheeler point of view that shows that they are putting their brains in gear(unlike the men) & makes it more likely that wheelers & devs will come to a mutual understanding of each other.
Having said all that a friend who is a female quad had a disturbing experience with a female dev a few months back.The conversation started out very innocently ,but slowly degenerated into the dev describing what she wanted to do to my friend.As my friend is happily married,she didnt appreciate the change in conversation....so its not completely black & white,there is a large grey area in between.
I think the perception of male devs is so bad because some of it is deserved but also the way they approach female wheelers is more direct & there is no shame about what they want.
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Phil
Junior Member
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Post by Phil on Nov 13, 2008 11:57:27 GMT -5
Phil, no offense taken, but I think you misunderstood what I was talking about. These were not relationships where I kept the dev thing secret, then got dumped after a big reveal--I agree that's a recipe for disaster. No, these were two long(ish)-term relationships with two different wheeler guys who knew from the beginning that I'm a dev. I actually met them on devo websites. At the beginning of the relationship each time they insisted they were ok with it, but once the relationship got more serious they started in with the little digs which all added up to the same thing: you're only interested in me because you're a devotee. It started as just little comments, which kept getting bigger and bigger and more disruptive to the relationship. And then when we broke up, that was the reason both of them gave, and in quite vindictive terms. Whatever, good riddance to both of them. It was clear that they both had deep-seated insecurities that prevented them from believing they were truly desirable. But it still really hurts at the time to be told "I accept you as a devotee--oh wait, no, I think you're sick in the head." It makes it hard to trust someone again the next time around. Yeah, I undertand what you're saying now. I don't know why people have to be such asses when there's a breakup. I can't prove it, but I'd assume that insecurity is pretty common in the population of disabled folks. Society puts a lot of stock in body image, both male and female. When you don't "fit" that accepted image criteria, you know it, and it's hard to get beyond that. That's probably especially true of someone that becomes disabled later in life as compared to having a disability from birth. It sounds like I'm making excuses for those 2 guys, I'm not. But I understand why they'd feel insecure about themselves. There's good people out there with their act together. Hang in there, I'm sure you'll find what you're looking for. |
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