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Post by mike on Jul 31, 2009 14:24:32 GMT -5
Last year I was hospitalized for spinal surgery, and while there encountered a nurse who likely is a dev.
As part of the recovery process, they try to get you up & walking as soon as possible. When I found myself in this situation, it was important to explain to the nurse that I normally wear braces, but had not brought them with me for the surgery, as they are heavy and awkward. I can (sorta) get around without my braces, although unsteady and painful, it is possible. The nurse then asked me a bunch of questions regarding my mobility, my braces etc. Eventually my wife brought my braces to the hospital so the nurse could see why I did not think it would be a good idea to wear them immediately after the type of surgery I had (spinal fusion). The nurse proceeded to examine & weigh them (18 lbs for the pair), then agreed with me they would be more problematic than helpful at that point in my recovery.
Subsequently whenever a physical therapist got a hold of me, the nurse was quickly there to caution them to be extra careful with me & make sure I didn’t fall etc. At the time, it just seemed she was being cautious and helpful, even though her concern seemed slightly excessive.
Subsequently, I returned to the same hospital rather suddenly due to a complication of the previous surgery and encountered the same nurse. My first visit was in the orthopedic ward, but the later visit was in cardiology. (I don’t have heart problems, but was in cardiology because I had experienced a pulmonary embolism.) I was quite surprised to encounter the same nurse, as she is normally assigned to orthopedics (how did she even become aware I was back?). She explained that she remembered me, and was concerned how I was doing etc. She once again made an issue of my braces, and got involved when it was time to start walking around again.
It occurred to me then that she might be a dev., which would have been fine with me; in fact, it would have been fascinating for me to have such a conversation with her. The problem of course is how one could possibly broach such a subject without seeming creepy or otherwise scaring her.
The nurse seemed interested in the braces, and the specifics of my mobility issues, whereas I was much more interested in her, why she was interested in mobility issues etc. The objective for me was not to seduce her or anything like that, but one of wanting to make friends, invite discussions etc. Clearly in order to accomplish my objectives it would have been necessary to redirect the conversation a bit, but it is not obvious how this could be accomplished, without at least tangentially touching on the subject of dev-ism, a subject that she might have found very threatening.
So the obvious question is this: How could I have invited a discussion without upsetting or frightening the nurse? I would have loved to convey the idea that I recognized devs., and was more than OK with the concept. How is this possible to convey to a relative stranger in a socially acceptable manner?
Regards,
Mike
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Post by Dee Dee on Jul 31, 2009 19:27:54 GMT -5
Mike; it seems to me that the question of "could she be a dev ...?" is one that has come up often here; especially lately. I think it´s perfectly natural for male wheelers to have these speculations when meeting a female who seems to show a particular interest in you/the chair/the braces/crutches etc. However, it might just be the case, that she is trying to do her job as good as possible and at the same time she might think that you´re a nice person/easy to have a conversation with/good-looking or any other positive attribute. She may not be a dev. If it´s a person who has a job in health care I think it´s very likely that she has heard of attraction to disabled people/disabilities before; in relation to her education and her job. In any case people working in health care experience the whole range of feelings/emotions/behaviour/etc. in their patients and they are trained to cope with that and handle it. I do understand your wish to have a conversation with her (but stay away from the seduction part - you´re married -  ). Perhaps an idea would be to hand her a piece of paper with the address of this website and your user name? Would it be that dangerous? It´s not like you´re presenting her with a chainsaw, right?! If she is a dev, or has dev-ish feelings, she probably knows it already, and she may take a look at the site. If not, she can always just toss the piece of paper in the paper basket. With these things it´s always difficult to know exactly what to do. You must rely on your gut feeling, I think. If you get to know the nurse a little bit better and you have a good feeling about the whole thing, then pursue the idea of having discussions with her etc. If not then have discussions with us, who are already here  . |
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Post by mike on Jul 31, 2009 21:16:49 GMT -5
I think you are correct diva, and it was apparent that my perceptions were heavily influenced by wishful thinking on my behalf. Unfortunately I don't have a magic wand to wave around and separate wishful thinking from reality, therefore err on the side of caution (paranoia?)
It is safer, but ultimately much less rewarding to talk about disability issues in a purely abstract manner. I would really like to have a conversation in real life with a dev, but don't know how, and am not sure how I would handle it emotionally. Clearly the dev phenomenon is not threatening in the least, but when face-to-face with something I have longed for most of my life, it easily could become overwhelming. Ideally it would happen in some neutral venue such as an English pub, so if necessary one could take a break to reestablish emotional bearings.
In a perfect world (according to me), I would meet a dev and proceed to develop a personal relationship, whether as friends or whatever. As I am married, the relationship wouldn't be likely to develop into a romance, but more a friend/confidante or other similar type. Actually that wouldn't be a perfect world, but a much improved one. The perfect world would have involved meeting her earlier and establishing a romantic relationship that lasted. As things stand, a dev friend would be a big improvement.
For unrelated reasons (PTSD), I was seeing a psychologist regularly for years, and although she skirted the issue (disability in a generic sense), it never was addressed directly, nor was the issue of attraction even hinted at. The subject of disability was lightly touched upon, and was always in the context of how it affected my life & relationships. When I became aware of dev's it didn't seem like something I felt was an appropriate subject for discussion, even though it might have resulted in a beneficial outcome.
Please forgive my incessant rambling, but also be aware, dev's are not the only ones with fears & trepidation surrounding the subject, and understand that could introduce stress to any relationship regardless of the apparent match between a dev & dis both desiring some kind of relationship.
Mike
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Post by doe on Aug 1, 2009 1:40:09 GMT -5
It is safer, but ultimately much less rewarding to talk about disability issues in a purely abstract manner. I would really like to have a conversation in real life with a dev, but don't know how, and am not sure how I would handle it emotionally. Clearly the dev phenomenon is not threatening in the least, but when face-to-face with something I have longed for most of my life, it easily could become overwhelming. Ideally it would happen in some neutral venue such as an English pub, so if necessary one could take a break to reestablish emotional bearings.
In a perfect world (according to me), I would meet a dev and proceed to develop a personal relationship, whether as friends or whatever. As I am married, the relationship wouldn't be likely to develop into a romance, but more a friend/confidante or other similar type. Actually that wouldn't be a perfect world, but a much improved one. The perfect world would have involved meeting her earlier and establishing a romantic relationship that lasted. As things stand, a dev friend would be a big improvement.
Mike
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Mike, your comments and expressed hesitations above apply equally to those if us who genuinely want to get to know to wheelers (including guys with braces) better. How does the person wanting the relationship with the wheeler (let's call that person the "Other") know that the wheeler is not thinking that the Other just wants him for the chair or whatever because of past experiences with devs or having heard all the negative things said about them? What if the Other is really genuine and wants to develop a personal relationship as well? To me there are barriers on both sides, Other to wheeler and wheeler to Other and we all need to work at getting over any distrust and nervousness.
That's why this site is so great. The more a person posts, the more of them is revealed and you can get a feel for whether someone is genuine or not.
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Post by mike on Aug 1, 2009 3:19:48 GMT -5
Doe,
You are absolutely correct, the issue is experienced by both sides, and certainly if you asked any 3 of us, you would be lucky to get only 5 different opinions.
The issue is more one of depth than complexity. For me, whether the dev was looking for a person, with disability as a side issue, or simply looking for the disability in and of itself wouldn't make much difference. Don't get the impression I am desperate, I am not, its just that both extremes appeal to different aspects of my personality. For example, finding out that there are female dev's went a long way to challenging my negative belief that females would universally find that aspect unattractive. Their motivations were unimportant to me, as I wasn't contemplating a romance, simply assurance I could still be attractive to someone. Conversely, if a dev was primarily interested in me as a person, that would be really cool, and the dev aspect would remove any doubt about them being repelled by my condition. Either way works, and if I could help them in return that would be very gratifying as well.
As we all know, there is often a big disparity between the message one sends and the one another receives. This can be either good or bad, depending upon the circumstances. For example, if I was to openly admire the physical attributes of a female, and verbalized something like "Nice boobs!" (wouldn't happen, don't worry), no matter what my intentions, the message she would receive would be along the lines of either "he is a creep!" or "he wants sex", or some combination of the two. In fact she might even think I was mocking her if she was ashamed of her boobs. If a female was to say something like "Nice braces" (I know, that wouldn't happen either), the message I would hear would be more along the lines of "not every female finds that part of you repulsive, I might even like that". It wouldn't matter to me that she wasn't seeking a relationship, the message I would receive would be flattery. A relationship might be cool, depending on more important stuff, but I would be walking on cloud 9 for a long time predicated exclusively upon the message as I would receive it. Unfortunately, there are no social rules to help predict the potential outcome. Whereas the earlier example (nice boobs) would be crude, it would be perfectly acceptable to openly admire your hair, eye color or whatever. There are customs that indicate certain comments should be interpreted in a positive context. Another dis might very well interpret the comment about nice braces as insulting, if the message they received was one of mockery, and there would be no way of predicting how the dis would receive an unusual comment of that nature.
The point of all this is that when dealing with things about which there are no social rules becomes uncertain for both sides, but occasionally is more honest when the participants don't know each other. I seriously doubt anyone who had an established good relationship would intentionally say something of a hurtful nature "This pie tastes like s**t!" - wouldn't happen, at best it might be along the lines of "Well it really looks good, but I am full & simply don't have room for moose turd pie". Children can be disarmingly honest, but not adults, they go out of their way to avoid hurting your feelings. This leaves a lot of room for misapprehensions when the subject is one about which their are no social customs to render guidance.
A forum such as this is cool, because you can feel free to say things that you would never publicly express, and I don't need to worry whether your comment was directed at my feelings as opposed to being honest.
Of course a lot of this is covering old ground for the veterans of this site, but as a newby it is new grounds for me and exciting to explore.
Regards,
Mike
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Post by Triassic on Aug 1, 2009 21:27:52 GMT -5
i don't know...these nurses, and the flight attendants(especially fubb's) COULD be devos, but they could also just be extra-nice women. it's something i've noticed from time to time; some women just seem to want to go out of their way to do whatever they can for me. i know its because of the chair, but somehow its not patronizing-as might be expected. its not cloying or belittling. she's just a kind person who wants to be helpful. but it isnt sexual, either.
also, i think some women have frank admiration for disabled people...but also are not devs. they are comfortable around us, tho'; and may display curiosity about our various accoutrements and methods.
it's been awhile since i've spotted any devs-ovr 3 years, i think. most of my dev encounters have been wordless-glances, an exchange of looks. a great deal can be communicated-or ascertained-just w/that. in many cases, these women seemed to be kind of flustered or discombobulated in some way by encountering me suddenly. long ago, i used to think they were grossed out or something.
anyway, what i'm saying i geuss is that a real dev is not likely to be too smooth or sure of herself in talking to you should convo occur. she MIGHT BE, of course, but i think monosyllables or awkward silence would be more likely.
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Post by mike on Aug 2, 2009 0:30:06 GMT -5
Triassic,
You are probably correct, my experience with dev's is extremely limited, and as far as I am aware most don't wear signs announcing their interest.
Additionally, my guess is that the degree of interest anyone experiences varies substantially over time. The dev of this morning may not feel the same way this evening. Having said that however, someone who has experienced attraction at one time or another is at least aware of the situation.
The real tricks would be: 1. Discriminating between genuine attraction and my own wishful thinking. 2. Communicating to a potential dev that her dev-ness is highly desirable to me without scaring her off. 3. Developing a level of communication that is rewarding to both sides. And finally, the tough one....drum roll please...establishing a relationship sufficiently secure & mature so we could continue to be honest & not devolve into the typical one of polite dishonesty in deference to each others feelings.
Mike
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Phil
Junior Member
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Post by Phil on Aug 2, 2009 11:21:19 GMT -5
I agree with Triassic. I believe that these folks most likely were just nice people wanting to help. I'll also add that they most likely have a family member or a close friend that is a wheeler, and so they knew enough to hold the legs on an aisle chair.
I base my opinion on knowing three female Devs in real life. One was married to an old friend of mine. He had MD. One worked as a PCA for her whole adult life. The third is an old friend of mine. We used to hang out together from time to time.
I've known two of these three women for many years. I was out in public or in social situations (parties, weddings, etc) many times with them. None of them ever exhibited any (what someone might think was) "unusual" behavior. They never rushed around, forcing their way into a situation, to grab a leg that might flop around or anything like that.
The last woman friend that I mentioned was interesting, however. She was gay (as in living with one woman for over 15 years and hating nearly all men gay, lol) and when we would go out to dinner or some other place, she often would spot a wheeler long before I did.
The guys can relate to the following, lol, but guys develop an ability to look at women, without letting on that they're looking. And we can be pretty clever (Hello? Oakley sunglasses?) in the subtle little tricks we have up our sleeves. Well, this woman was a master at it, lol. She would blow me away when she'd start rattling off details of someone she had spotted. So guys, the tables might be getting turned on you for a change, lol. You might be the eye candy, and never know it, lol. ;D
One final thing. As I said before, this woman was 100% gay. She "came out" over 20 years ago. But, she was attracted to female AND male wheelers. She couldn't explain why. That part was fascinating to me.
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Post by lindab535 on Aug 3, 2009 19:24:22 GMT -5
<i>One final thing. As I said before, this woman was 100% gay. She "came out" over 20 years ago. But, she was attracted to female AND male wheelers. She couldn't explain why. That part was fascinating to me.</i>
That's like me. I am truly straight but I feel strongly attracted to both male and female wheelers/bad walkers.
I agree with Triassic that my most likely behavior around a disabled person that was attractive to me would be mute, stunned admiration. That's what usually happens. It's very rare to be in a real chat-able situation where a person who is disabled and attractive to me happens to be. My strongest 3 devo memories are:
1. very sexy girl on crutches in parking lot one evening
2. drunk wheeler girl falling down laughing drunk with her friend in the bathroom at martini bar
3. sexy wheeler guy in Target
None of these lent themselves to conversation, unfortunately.
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Post by matisse on Aug 4, 2009 16:52:57 GMT -5
I think a lot of us have been in chairs long enough to recognize the "extra-nice" attitude. I see it and get it all the time, especially while traveling since that's when I am most likely to need some help. But there are times, very few of them, when there's something that just seems different.......
On the nurses, there are just too many sci rehab stories for me to not believe that there are some serious devs working in those places......
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Phil
Junior Member
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Post by Phil on Aug 4, 2009 19:12:43 GMT -5
I think a lot of us have been in chairs long enough to recognize the "extra-nice" attitude. I see it and get it all the time, especially while traveling since that's when I am most likely to need some help. But there are times, very few of them, when there's something that just seems different....... On the nurses, there are just too many sci rehab stories for me to not believe that there are some serious devs working in those places...... Agreed. |
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Post by E on Aug 5, 2009 7:12:17 GMT -5
The last woman friend that I mentioned was interesting, however. She was gay (as in living with one woman for over 15 years and hating nearly all men gay, lol) and when we would go out to dinner or some other place, she often would spot a wheeler long before I did. I know a woman just like this, but she's never claimed devness -- she may not know it exists. To make things more apparent, she used to sneak away from her "wife" and drive an hour from Miami to cheat on her... with me. |
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Phil
Junior Member
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Post by Phil on Aug 5, 2009 11:02:59 GMT -5
The last woman friend that I mentioned was interesting, however. She was gay (as in living with one woman for over 15 years and hating nearly all men gay, lol) and when we would go out to dinner or some other place, she often would spot a wheeler long before I did. I know a woman just like this, but she's never claimed devness -- she may not know it exists. To make things more apparent, she used to sneak away from her "wife" and drive an hour from Miami to cheat on her... with me. Ummmmmmm, I wasn't going to say anything, but this sounds very familiar (except for the Miami part)... if you follow my drift.  |
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Post by E on Aug 5, 2009 11:18:40 GMT -5
FWIW, when our "relationship" began, I was under the impression that her SO was fully aware and accepting of her visits. I discovered I was mistaken down the road...
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Phil
Junior Member
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Post by Phil on Aug 5, 2009 12:33:19 GMT -5
FWIW, when our "relationship" began, I was under the impression that her SO was fully aware and accepting of her visits. I discovered I was mistaken down the road... Our stories differ there. They talked it over and her partner recognized that she wasn't a wheeler (or in my case, male, lol) so she had the blessing of her partner to "sow her wild (Dev) oats." |
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). Perhaps an idea would be to hand her a piece of paper with the address of this website and your user name? Would it be that dangerous? It´s not like you´re presenting her with a chainsaw, right?! If she is a dev, or has dev-ish feelings, she probably knows it already, and she may take a look at the site. If not, she can always just toss the piece of paper in the paper basket. 
.
