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Post by Enid on Mar 30, 2014 8:40:21 GMT -5
As a chair user I have never been with a woman that got off on the pain that's comes with my disability. Most of my partners were with me for your typical garden variety reasons. I have been with two devs (that I know of.) These women got off on the way I am, not the physical and emotional pain that arises from the way I an. Only a sick and twisted person gets off on pain. I don't think devs get off on pain. What Lavly says... that they didn't tell you they did doesn't mean it didn't happen. They might not even have known themselves. Because when that shit happens to me, half the time I don't even realize I'm aroused until later. And I did tell, but with the stupid little things. Like, once a para was telling me about how hard his quad friend had it, and how he had to help him get into the car. I'm sorry, maybe I'm sick and twisted, but once that image was in my head I stopped feeling bad for the quad friend and my mind was somewhere else. Those stories I could tell the para. The ones where I was just thinking by myself about his situation and got all sad, but turned on at the same time? Those I kept to myself. So wallow in your guilt or accept that you like what you like and free yourself.. We've said it before. We don't feel guilty about what we like. But it's nice of you to tell us that after saying we're "sick and twisted".
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Post by kwhi on Mar 30, 2014 8:44:18 GMT -5
As a chair user I have never been with a woman that got off on the pain that's comes with my disability. Most of my partners were with me for your typical garden variety reasons. I have been with two devs (that I know of.) These women got off on the way I am, not the physical and emotional pain that arises from the way I an. Only a sick and twisted person gets off on pain. I don't think devs get off on pain. What Lavly says... that they didn't tell you they did doesn't mean it didn't happen. They might not even have known themselves. Because when that shit happens to me, half the time I don't even realize I'm aroused until later. And I did tell, but with the stupid little things. Like, once a para was telling me about how hard his quad friend had it, and how he had to help him get into the car. I'm sorry, maybe I'm sick and twisted, but once that image was in my head I stopped feeling bad for the quad friend and my mind was somewhere else. Those stories I could tell the para. The ones where I was just thinking by myself about his situation and got all sad, but turned on at the same time? Those I kept to myself. So wallow in your guilt or accept that you like what you like and free yourself.. We've said it before. We don't feel guilty about what we like. But it's nice of you to tell us that after saying we're "sick and twisted". You might read more closely.
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Post by Enid on Mar 30, 2014 8:49:27 GMT -5
And I want to clarify one thing... about the "not knowing" part. This stuff I'm saying? I couldn't have told a year ago. Not only didn't I have the courage to post about it publicly, I also hadn't explored it enough to have the words for it.
I'm really glad I am at the point where I have words for all these feelings. Where I have actually analyzed the "guilt" that isn't really guilt, and separated all the components that make it up. And really grateful for the people who have helped me get here.
And it's been a hard journey. And it doesn't sit well with me to see "sick and twisted" associated with it. But I'm owning it. If you don't like it... well, nothing I can do about it.
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Post by Zaphod on Mar 30, 2014 9:25:22 GMT -5
Inigo, Thank you for starting this thread, and thank's to everyone for their candor. Another thing is that once I started having serious crushes, there is not a single AB guy that I've crushed on that I didn't disable in my mind/fantasies. There was always a (seemingly) ridiculous fear that my fantasy disabling would somehow create a karmic reality disabling. Because life likes to fuck with us all, two of those guys have been disabled since we all hit adulthood. Those two were from a tiny private school with around 20-30 students... seems like a high ratio to me. You can let go of this one (if you haven't already). My hichschool class was 14 students... one of us was in a chair then, and two more of us were paralyzed by the time we were 24. These things happen. Another facet of the guilt is that I am very attracted to the very thing that most likely has caused the OOMA (Object of My Affection) a great deal of emotional and physical trauma. Also, the very thing also continues to cause the OOMA a great deal of difficulty in daily life. So, the times I have tried to develop an emotional attachment with a guy here it's with the understanding that one of the things he hates most about himself and/or his life. Try that sometime, it is a road to emotional scorched earth, lemme tell ya. Even though there will be many other facets of him and physical things about him that I like/adore... that fact is generally bound to cause an issue. Idk where you are with things... but one of my fantasies is to play with a para's quiet legs... how would you genuinely feel about that if you hate the way they make you move and the other things that paralysis does to you? I wouldn't care if someone played with my legs, although I doubt they'd lay quiet for you (spasticity). Off the cuff, it seems like these particular issues arise more from difficulties a crip has dealing with his situation, not your attraction to them. That other life where I drove truck, walked, and liked to ski.... it was over a decade ago. I hardly think of it, and I devote no time at all to being angry over what's different now. All those issues go away if you're guy doesn't carry that angst in the first place... no? I'm not sure whether this next bit belongs in the guilt or disclosure part, so I'm sticking it in the middle. I can't remember which of the newer wheelers mentioned hearing about devs and hearing bad things. If it wasn't you, go to any message board for SCI and search "devotee" read what they say there and imagine it was being said about you. It is almost never pretty. I think it's still safe to say we're pretty universally despised in many PWD circles. Yes, this is hard to deal with but it's important to ignore that stuff. Some of you may be noticing at this point, I hold strong opinions and some of them are very counterculture-ish. There are places online where HORRIBLE HORRIBLE LIES are told about people who think like me... I know those people say those things out of ignorance and malice, they're wrong. Whether the popular narrative is for you, or against you matters little when you know the truth. I am curious about how many of your sexual partners since you've been disabled have thoroughly incorporated your disability in love making? << Kinda random-ish and kinda not question. None, but if any of them had asked to spend time exploring my body in whatever manner I wouldn't have given it a lot of thought... I like to spend a lot of time exploring my partners body, in sometimes unconventional ways, as well. I know women who met and married their dream man and didn't disclose, only to witness him ranting about devs and how awful they are. Not a fun position to be in. So, yeah, we recommend that devs tell. Because nobody wants to spend lots of time coming to love someone only to discover that they despise a major part of your sexuality. If you reach that point, the problems are far deeper than the dev issue... those two hypothetical people are both married to a stranger. At that point she really has all the power in the world to disclose, she has their entire history as proof that devs aren't evil by default. I (and some other devs) am more aware of some of this stuff than other peeps in the general population in large part because men from here have ASKED. They wanted to know what I was attracted to and WHY. Have you ever tried to suss out WHY you're attracted to something? I finally put down the shovel and stopped digging for that answer. No, and that's sort of what precipitated my question... :-)
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Post by Inigo Montoya on Mar 30, 2014 9:46:25 GMT -5
I want to play off of something Enid said just now... this openness that you see here? The self knowledge about my guilt and all that stuff? It has come from YEARS of discussion with others (devs and dis). The first time a para ever asked me, "What do you like about paralysis?" We were sitting face to face in a motel room and I had no clue how to answer. No fucking clue. I sat there for a minute or two and he said..."You're not going to answer?" And I flatly said, "No."
Put yourself in that position for a second. Sitting there facing someone that you're so attracted to that the minute you saw them everything around you literally fell away. They are the first person you've ever really spent any time with who has boobs (I don't completely agree with the boob/attraction analogy... but it IS easy) and they are looking at you and asking what you like about it. Someone who has publicly stated, more than once, how much trouble their boobs cause them and how much they hate them.
No pressure! lol
When I first came here I couldn't articulate a bit of this. And when I would TYPE stuff up (and then later, chickenshittedly delete it) I would have that huge "No words getting past me!" lump in my throat.
A word about the guilt and wallowing. I am not going to say that I've never wallowed in the guilt (and maybe that is the wrong word, but again, easy)... maybe that's what it was. But for a long time it wouldn't let go of me. I would think I was done and then something would happen and it'd grab me again. It took hours of convo with friends and I think the one that finally did it was a quad whom I met here (he doesn't post here any more). He's a very good friend and he's the one who really helped me let go of it.
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Post by Zaphod on Mar 30, 2014 9:54:16 GMT -5
c They are the first person you've ever really spent any time with who has boobs (I don't completely agree with the boob/attraction analogy... but it IS easy) and they are looking at you and asking what you like about it. I don't need to imagine that lol, women look for those descriptions all the time. The women in my history have anyway.
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Post by Inigo Montoya on Mar 30, 2014 9:57:11 GMT -5
c They are the first person you've ever really spent any time with who has boobs (I don't completely agree with the boob/attraction analogy... but it IS easy) and they are looking at you and asking what you like about it. I don't need to imagine that lol, women look for those descriptions all the time. The women in my history have anyway. lol.... What do you say in response? I like boobs because they hang there, are made of fat and mammary glands, are kinda roundish and the ends are pointy when I do the right thing?
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Post by Zaphod on Mar 30, 2014 10:08:56 GMT -5
I don't need to imagine that lol, women look for those descriptions all the time. The women in my history have anyway. lol.... What do you say in response? I like boobs because they hang there, are made of fat and mammary glands, are kinda roundish and the ends are pointy when I do the right thing? It's just as difficult to describe as your attraction to disability I'm sure... I've always let out some organic words about the appeal of her shape, her texture, her form and then made a clear demonstration of the power of that appeal on me... that style of reply has seemed satisfactory to everyone so far.
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Post by Enid on Mar 30, 2014 10:38:54 GMT -5
I want to play off of something Enid said just now... this openness that you see here? The self knowledge about my guilt and all that stuff? It has come from YEARS of discussion with others (devs and dis). The first time a para ever asked me, "What do you like about paralysis?" We were sitting face to face in a motel room and I had no clue how to answer. No fucking clue. I sat there for a minute or two and he said..."You're not going to answer?" And I flatly said, "No." Put yourself in that position for a second. Sitting there facing someone that you're so attracted to that the minute you saw them everything around you literally fell away. They are the first person you've ever really spent any time with who has boobs (I don't completely agree with the boob/attraction analogy... but it IS easy) and they are looking at you and asking what you like about it. Someone who has publicly stated, more than once, how much trouble their boobs cause them and how much they hate them. No pressure! lol When I first came here I couldn't articulate a bit of this. And when I would TYPE stuff up (and then later, chickenshittedly delete it) I would have that huge "No words getting past me!" lump in my throat. A word about the guilt and wallowing. I am not going to say that I've never wallowed in the guilt (and maybe that is the wrong word, but again, easy)... maybe that's what it was. But for a long time it wouldn't let go of me. I would think I was done and then something would happen and it'd grab me again. It took hours of convo with friends and I think the one that finally did it was a quad whom I met here (he doesn't post here any more). He's a very good friend and he's the one who really helped me let go of it. I just want to say thanks for this Inigo. "Liking" it isn't enough. Exactly two years ago I was in one of those conversations, and it was one of the hardest moments of my life as a dev. And this thread is helping a lot with the feelings that that anniversary brings. So thank you for what you wrote.
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Post by Inigo Montoya on Mar 30, 2014 11:10:47 GMT -5
You're welcome, Enid. I remember participating in those chats and remember discussing how hard it is to delve into this stuff and how liberating it is, once you get past the giant lump, to be able to SPEAK it. If this helps in any way then I am very, very glad.
To Zaphod and others who have expressed gladness that this thread started, I'm very happy that it's generating this discussion and, maybe, helping peeps understand each other.
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Post by greeneyedvillan on Mar 30, 2014 11:38:21 GMT -5
so I have a question. if you were to tell a guy about your devness and he wasn't just ok about, he was very excited and overly happy about it and way in to it. how would that make you ladies feel?? would it be a turn off or be creepy to you?
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Post by Cake on Mar 30, 2014 12:36:37 GMT -5
so I have a question. if you were to tell a guy about your devness and he wasn't just ok about, he was very excited and overly happy about it and way in to it. how would that make you ladies feel?? would it be a turn off or be creepy to you? I guess that would depend a lot on whether I felt that that guy knew what devness really is and what it entails... ETA: Just saw Lucretia basically said the same, just more elaborately. So sorry for the parroting!
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Post by greeneyedvillan on Mar 30, 2014 12:37:19 GMT -5
so I have a question. if you were to tell a guy about your devness and he wasn't just ok about, he was very excited and overly happy about it and way in to it. how would that make you ladies feel?? would it be a turn off or be creepy to you? It depends on the guy. I have had many guys go into great detail about how they were SO into devs playing with the parts of their body they didn't pay much attention to... and then... I would find out that most of those guys were pretenders... *sigh* A few guys use that tactic as bait. They lure devs into discussion about exploration, and the drop the whammy on them. It's a "GOTCHA" game where the dev is led down the garden path and then bludgeoned with her own sexuality. "Sick and twisted", and "Freak" are the most common insults. Although one wheeler called it a form of Necrophilia. So... It has happened here more times than I care to remember,and more than a few devs have left in shame because of it. I worry about those lonely devs. I do sincerely hope they still lurk here and are able to at least participate in some form in the discussions(if only in the privacy of their own heads) and are able to leave that shame behind, because the guys that do that are not really men at all. They are predators. So I learned to be suspicious when a guy comes on and says how much he is into devs, and all the attention. I know, I know... painting everyone with the same brush and all that... but there it is. On the other hand, in a healthy relationship where YOU KNOW your partner (and not just an online thing), it is absolutely fabulous. There is nothing like no-holds-barred exploration with a lover who is as into it as you are. Of course, that usually means things go both ways. It is impossible to allow and revel in that kind of exploration unless you have a positive self-image and can love your own body in the full, blazing light of someone else's admiration- both devs and disabled men. There is no easy answer to your question, but I do appreciate you asking it. I am ALL FOR guys who are truly into devs, with everything that entails... but I am suspicious of every guy who SAYS so, until I can verify his intentions. that's a pretty fair answer. im really just asking because im new to all this and trying to figure out in my mind if I could be into all this. just for the record I don't think any of you ladies are "sick", "twisted", or "freaks". im just curious
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Post by Zaphod on Mar 30, 2014 13:36:25 GMT -5
And I want to clarify one thing... about the "not knowing" part. This stuff I'm saying? I couldn't have told a year ago. Not only didn't I have the courage to post about it publicly, I also hadn't explored it enough to have the words for it. I'm really glad I am at the point where I have words for all these feelings. Where I have actually analyzed the "guilt" that isn't really guilt, and separated all the components that make it up. And really grateful for the people who have helped me get here. And it's been a hard journey. And it doesn't sit well with me to see "sick and twisted" associated with it. But I'm owning it. If you don't like it... well, nothing I can do about it. Thank you!!! For many of us, this has been a long, arduous journey. I see some of the guys are all like, get over the guilt, man. Like it's that easy. For many of us, we ARE over it. We HAVE gone through it and are out on the other side. For others, guilt is a part of who they are, and saying "get over it" detracts from their unique person-hood. I'm cheering, though, because most of us have come so far, in ways we would never have imagined when we first joined. So THANK YOU again for highlighting your journey, and reminding us all of our own. P.S. Sick and twisted? Sure, I own that, too. I have been called a freak enough times that the sting, while still there, is more like a dull twinge... And at the end of the day, the guy that has a problem with me and my sexuality? *shrug* I just don't care. Hello Lucretia :-) (I'll say that here, you were in and out of the chat room so fast I didn't get a chance) Since understanding some of what you ladies experience is exactly the point of this thread do you think you could share how carrying guilt as part of one's identity could be helpful? Also what sort of damage do us wheelers risk causing when we respectfully ask about that guilt or suggest someone may be happier without it?
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Post by kwhi on Mar 30, 2014 14:19:19 GMT -5
As a chair user I have never been with a woman that got off on the pain that's comes with my disability.Most of my partners were with me for your typical garden variety reasons. I have been with two devs (that I know of.) These women got off on the way I am, not the physical and emotional pain that arises from the way I an. Only a sick and twisted person gets off on pain. I don't think devs get off on pain.So wallow in your guilt or accept that you like what you like and free yourself.. I am quoting the entire thing for context, but highlighting the stuff I feel is relevant. Dude, pain is not erotic? Of course it its. Check out the porn industry. No one subset of the population corners the market on pain as an aphrodisiac. Do some devs get off on emotional pain? Absolutely. Do some devs get off on physical pain? Absolutely. Just as in ANY group of people, men OR women, there will be a HUGE variety of thing that turn them on. Even the lightest BDSM is full of simulated pain. I have always enjoyed spanking and light bondage, for example. To say there is a difference between fantasy and reality does not diminish the fact that pain can be just as much a component of any fetish/attraction as any other component. Many of us have been in situations where, perhaps not in the moment (but perhaps so…) but certainly in retrospect, we have been extremely aroused by the struggle. That is a key reason why many devs do feel a sense of shame. It is difficult to reconcile a feeling of arousal with a man’s discomfort. Thankfully, many of us have partners who not only know this, they get it. I’m not saying devs are going to CAUSE pain or struggle, just that most would never admit to being turned on by things that do cause difficulty. Most of us are very careful in what we disclose. Most of us are very good at hiding what has often been termed “the dark side” of devness. Don’t ask for disclosure of the dark side, though. It has come up here a few times, and has devolved into some very PC, blanket statements. We are too savvy to get lured down that rabbit hole. I don’t actually expect any dev to come after me and say, “Hey, I get it! I am also turned on the struggle!” Why should they? It’s not every dev’s experience, after all. But to say that ANY dev who was turned on by pain is sick and twisted only drives a pretty large segment of us underground. Those of who do have that as part of our play or fantasy life will feel a serious lack of safety in confirming it. Those of us who do not, but support our fellow devs will feel conflicted and often that results in silence. Those of us who are freaked out by the idea and loudly proclaim devs NEVER do that will only enforce the silence of the other groups. Like I said, it’s a rabbit hole where nothing good waits for Alice. But regardless of whether you get confirmation or denial of your statement “sick and twisted”, know for SURE that while that may be your opinion, it is certainly not everyone’s. I understand pleasure and pain. My first ltr was with a woman who loved many kinds of sex. She loved for me to tie her up and wack her ass with a hair brush. It's a good thing we had other things in common (feet for instance) because I sucked at tiyng and wacking( never tight enough or hard enough). I understand a person enjoying a D&B session or lifestyle, and I can see some similarities in devness. But there is a clear difference between a D&B lifestyle and keeping a sex slave against their will. I can understand watching someone struggle to accomplish some task of daily living and being turned on by the way they did it. I like watching a woman in a short dress great legs and high heels strut down the street. []If a woman digs it that I push instead of walk,, when they understand I would rather walk fine by me. but if she wants to watch me stand and walk because it causes me incredible pain and she knows it does, that's where I get off the train! Ps I will do anything in a chair for the right woman. Just ask. LOL!
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