Hoping to start a good discussion here

[butterfly]

So last night, a fellow dev and I had a very long Skype conversation, and during that conversation something came up on which we would really love to have your input. 

This person and I have completely different backgrounds in so many ways, one of which is our looks. Anyone who has seen my picture knows that I am no beauty, and anyone who has seen her picture knows how gorgeous she is.

We both shared our experiences growing up with regard to the attention that we received from the opposite gender, how it made us feel and how it shaped the way that we feel about ourselves, and we both learned a great deal from that part of the conversation about the other's point of view. And then it turned to the other devs here and the PWDs, and their potential experiences with the same thing.

One of the things that we talked about was our mutual frustration with a society that generally has no problem with taking a single look at an individual and judging them to be lacking in some way, be it looks, size, race, disability, etc. For the record, we are both very tired of people being so quick to judge based on those things and others which truly have little to do with the person inside.

We both understand the concept of attraction, and how there are several things that factor into whether or not we consider another person attractive. For the record, yes, I know that we all have our preferences and there is nothing wrong with that at all. Each of us knows PWDs either IRL or online who have shared their experiences with us, and there is an overwhelming consensus (not 100%) that many of them have experienced the same frustration at being judged based more upon their disability than the on person that they are.

So here is the million - dollar question that we both hope will spark a good discussion here - we both find it interesting that people who either may have been in the past or possibly are currently being judged based upon something that is out of their control, and therefore know how that feels, are often times still just as quick to judge others for some pretty shallow reasons as well. We each feel like folks who have been unfairly misjudged ought to know just how that feels and therefore maybe be a little bit more aware of not doing that to other people, but that doesn't necessarily seem to be the case.

Thoughts on this?

[el_steveo]

I think people are attracted to people who they think are in their league. in other words, if you think you are a 6 your more likely to be attracted to women who you think are 6's, and if you think your a 10 you're more likely to be attracted to women who you think are 10's.

[farfaraway]

As shallow as it sounds I agree with the soulwithin. Especially at my young age.. I couldn't ever see myself settling for someone who I'm not attracted too. In real life it's a little easier to like someone not based off looks because you get a taste of the whole package but online I def judge right off the bat. If I DIDN'T I do think I'd be wasting a lot of time talking to randoms that nothing would come from.. I don't want to waste any time. There are plenty of men out online that I'm attracted too! But again.. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and I really think there's someone out there for everyone. When it comes to friends and stuff I could care less how they look. It is sometimes hard to friend zone a guy after getting to know them and knowing you don't like them like that so I am known to just avoid it.

[Justagirl]

My thoughts.....I think judging someone on their looks does happen, it has to. I do it and it has been done to me. There are too many people in the world to take the time to get to know every single one. On dating sites, what is the one thing you see first? Their picture. Then you may glance at what they have written, but there are many profiles you won't look at again, based solely on the picture. I don't have time to get to know everyone. Is this shallow? Perhaps. But I also do this .... I try and take in as many things as I can from that one picture. Where are they? If they are doing a triathlon and I hate exercise, there is something we won't have in common. If they are in front of their house which is a log cabin in the woods but I like the city life, there's another mismatch. Sometimes you figure out more about a person than you think by simply looking not only at them, but at all the other details. Is this ideal? No, but what other way is there? I have been stereotyped over superficial things more than once but I can't prove to everyone who I really am, and honestly I don't want to. I have even had people come up to me and admit that they thought I was one way based on appearances but that they wrong. And I just smile. So while I try and stay away from stereotyping, I will try and assess as many details as I can get from the outside. If a guy is sitting on a Harley, and I hate motorcycles, I don't see anything wrong with thinking that there is an obvious interest of his that I don't share, so will we be suitable? However, if I see a guy on a Harley and tell myself he must be an insensitive, swearing, beer drinking hoodlum, that is a stereotype, and that is what I will not do. That's what I think at least. Oh, and I have never put a number on myself. I know guys put numbers on women, but do you number yourself? And do we women number the guys?

[hartmannwrites]

Soooo...

For the record, I'm the "fellow dev" whom butterfly is referring to

First things first, I'd like to thank you for taking the time to speak so candidly with me about such a (potentially) sensitive and loaded subject. You are one amazing woman with an overwhelming amount of insight and understanding. In a single conversation, you opened my eyes to an entirely different perspective, without once making me feel judged for being who I am. For that, I'm more grateful than words can even begin to express.

Disclaimers:

1. I am a superficial person. Looks DO matter to me when it comes to ROMANTIC/SEXUAL attraction. I have physical preferences for which I am unapologetic.

2. I am a para dev. A low para dev. Zero apologies for this either.

3. Butterfly and I were NOT talking about sexual attraction. We were talking about treating people as they should be treated - as people.

I've had the utmost pleasure of speaking to a number of decent and very respectful men on PD. Moreover, I've been blessed to meet a few incredible men whom will always have a special place in my heart.

James (Quad Amp): I trust you. You challenge but never judge me. I feel safe. I could tell you anything. I can always be myself with you.
@braced4impact (Spina Bifida): You make me laugh. You are respectful. You have a ginormous heart. I can always be myself with you too.
It is my absolute honour to call you both friends. Umm...we are friends...right? RIGHT???

As I said, I AM a para dev. These two gentlemen are NOT paras. But it would have been an absolute shame had I not taken the time to get to know them because of that fact. And it would have 100% been MY loss had I chosen to be so ignorant. 

Thank you for bringing up the unavoidable rating system, el_steveo. I welcome people to rate me. In fact, I believe that people SHOULD rate me. Especially the inside.


P.S. - There are a couple other fantastic non-paras whom I shall not name, as I haven't the opportunity to ask their permission first. You know who you are, boys. Thank you for being you.

[Deleted]

I believe that judging people by their appearance is a human trait. When we meet someone, the way a person looks is the first thing we notice about them. Unfortunately there are people out there who believe that a book’s cover says it all and they don’t feel that reading the actual story is necessary to form an opinion.

What I have noticed in people who don’t seem to be able/willing to look past other people’s exterior, is that they are often very insecure about themselves and about how other people may perceive them. My mother is one of those people. To this day, she states that it’s important to look good and have good-looking friends or others may not like you and you will end up alone. (FYI: I can’t remember my mother having any friends other than her sisters and my dad.)

I still judge books by their cover and I am well aware that others judge me by my looks too. Fortunately I learned over time that the story behind the cover is often so much better than what the eye perceives. And I happen to love reading a good story. And I’m glad to have met lots of great people, both online and IRL, who do too.

Do I hate being judged by my appearance? Absolutely! Because I know for a fact that there is way more to me than a pretty face and a not so tiny waist. And that is what I keep in mind when I catch myself judging covers. But if people are writing me off solely based on what I look like, I don’t think they are worth my time.

That being said, it won’t keep me from occasionally being super shallow and drool over some hot (para/quad) guys and their sporty chairs…

Just don’t judge me for drooling. Please. Thank you. 

[Maurine]

When it comes to dating, I rule out guys whom I'm not attracted to. Of course there are other factors, but I'll rule out someone for dating because he isn't my type looks-wise just like I rule someone out because of his personality.
There are relatively few men that I find overly attractive. Besides, I have an unusual taste. Many men that I find attractive are deemed ugly by many women, and most men that are generally regarded as handsome are absolutely unattractive to me. However, this is by no means a general rule. Sometimes I'm attracted to men that many would consider attractive. I prefer men with faces with what many would consider a flaw, say a broken nose. However, that doesn't mean at all that any man that would be regarded as having an ugly face is automatically attractive to me.

When it comes to interactions other than romantic ones, looks are not important to me. Being short and petite, I've had people deem me weak fragile inside because of my outward appearance. (Although I'm not even that physically weak anyway - I'm really good at transferring my boyfriend, who is much taller and heavier than me. Though he helps a lot with transfers, people are still surprised when they see it.) I think some people would talk differently to me if I were overly tall and obese. Some women like to be cute, but to me it's mildly annoying. I wouldn't like to be any taller, but I don't like the reaction it occasionally invokes, although there are types of looks that lead to far worse judgements for sure. I hope I don't judge people based on their physical appearance. It doesn't matter to me what my friends look like. I often don't know if someone would be considered good-looking by society and I also don't care.

[Deleted]

I've been on both sides of the issue. I have been judged, and when I was younger, it hurt. Then I realized that people can be shallow, and I'm no different. I have passed up good matches for myself simply because of their physical appearance. I don't really do a numerical scale, but a spectrum. There's "Never ever", "Meh", "I could definitely" and "....."

I still struggle with my self-esteem. I'll never be the right size, I'll never have the right fashion, I'll never have the best of anything, etc etc. I'm learning that none of that matters anymore, as long as I'm happy. Someone will always be better than me - there's always someone to envy. However much it hurts when I'm rejected, it's a fact of life.

[melita]

We are all judgmental... including me, because I judge you all for being judgmental! But this at least isn't a physical trait.

Don't do that, or at least try no to, please. Who can be so sure they are not looking for the treasure in all wrong places?

One can be crazy about redheads, but find their life love in a blond (if lucky)!

[matisse]

Sept 15, 2015 11:17:08 GMT -5 @tc123 said:

All of my female friends are attractive (I think) and all of my male friends are attractive (I think).

Wait--all your friends are hot and you won't be friends with someone you don't consider to be hot?

[MarineAmp]

It's just evolution that has trained us to make snap judgments. Life and death choices have and continue to be made on quick judgments. In general attractive people are less likely to have health defects, so they become a more desired mating partner.

So I guess it is more impressive if you can actually over come this with a conscience choice, but I don't think judging people will ever really stop.

[butterfly]

Sept 15, 2015 1:15:46 GMT -5 hartmannwrites said:

3. Butterfly and I were NOT talking about sexual attraction. We were talking about treating people as they should be treated - as people.

This is very important - we did actually address sexual attraction in our conversation but it was a very small part of it.

Mees said:
Fortunately I learned over time that the story behind the cover is often so much better than what the eye perceives. And I happen to love reading a good story.

Yes - I am in total agreement with this

Maur1ne said:
Besides, I have an unusual taste. Many men that I find attractive are deemed ugly by many women, and most men that are generally regarded as handsome are absolutely unattractive to me.

This, I agree with to an extent. I do not really care for the word "ugly" in this instance, but we DO all have our particular preferences that play into things in terms of that sexual attraction. As I told our beheading-happy ninja friend, mine are more off-center from much of the rest of the world, because my own tendency is to appreciate that which is often overlooked for whatever reason.

Here's the thing - the intent of this thread was more to just try to make people think a little bit. It was NOT originally about sexual attraction, it was simply about keeping in mind that we need to treat people as we ourselves would like to be treated. If we have ever, at any point in our lives, been the least bit hurt by someone who wrongfully judged us, then we need to remember how that felt and it should be in the back of our minds that we need to try not to do that to others. That was the gist of our entire conversation the other night.

As for me? I see beauty everywhere I go. In people, in architecture, in things of nature - a quick glance may initially catch my eye, but it is my natural curiosity and desire to see and learn more that compel me to take the time and make the effort to look closer and find what is truly beautiful in everything and everyone. What is on the outside can easily and quickly change; a flower in peak bloom will eventually fade and wither, but the plant still has the power to grow into something beautiful once more, over and over again. And, in fact, that power and inner beauty have always been there, often unnoticed or unrecognized. There is nothing wrong with enjoying a pretty flower or an outwardly beautiful person, as long as we keep in mind that someone's true beauty lies in their heart, their soul and their mind. That, my friends, is what I was trying to convey here.

[Pony]

Well, for me, I do sum up people fairly quickly by appearance, but also often find that I'm wrong about them after getting to know them a little. And i think that's true a lot of times when people see me. The disability can really skew how someone perceives you, and that drives me crazy, but other people deal with this, too. There's no doubt about it, but 'good' looks open doors.;..i've always seen it with gorgeous girls, including my own sister and my niece, however, it can also be such a curse- guys just won't leave them alone. My own looks have helped me possess a confidence in playing music and with girls, but there are things about this quad body that i'm embarrassed about and, frankly, loathe. So, i try to focus on my strong points and just ignore the ones i hate.

As for girls, i'm usually attracted to girls above my level, but i have to say, sometimes there's just 'something' about them that really lures me in...not physical.

[JW]

One thing that seems consistent is that most people seem to do some kind of initial judgement based on appearance. It's something that I've thought about often. If I were still able bodied would I consider dating a female wheeler if I saw her out in public? If not, then why should I necessarily expect an able bodied woman to consider dating me? Should a woman who is 5 feet tall and out of shape only want to date 6 foot tall guys who work out every day and have 6 pack abs? There's probably no good or right answer to this question. Is one necessarily better than the other? Not really. I guess as long as two people are attracted to each other that's all that matters (at least in the beginning). 

I suspect it's the kind of thing that goes through everyone's mind every now and again, whether they are disabled or not. I know I have ruled out women before because I thought they were too skinny and a few women that I thought were too pretty because I figured they might be high maintenance or a pain to deal with. Thinking about it now it sounds a little ridiculous, but sometimes we make these decisions whether we are consciously thinking about it at the time or not. Unfortunately, we are all shaped by our childhood experiences and what we are taught about appearance when we're young. Luckily, I have avoided getting into any specific rating system in my head about a woman's attractiveness or appearance. I am not really sure where I would fall on a 1 to 10 scale myself, so it would be really strange to start looking at women in that way. 

In the long run, it's probably always better to get to know someone as a friend at first. That's the only way to take appearance or any prejudgements completely out of the equation. I don't care what my friends look like. Who knows, maybe that friend you weren't necessarily turned on by in the beginning might become more attractive to you as you get to know them better. The best girlfriend I ever had started out as a friend of a friend, who I never even considered dating. Not because she was unattractive, but because I thought she was too young (she was 15 and I had just turned 18). If she hadn't made the first move then we would never have gotten together and I would have missed out on an amazing girl. 

[Deleted]

The thing that stands out to me in this thread so far is how few men have responded, and mostly women have provided very fleshed out posts, even though it's a question for both genders with a specific part about disability. Interesting. EDIT: Of course the dudes start posting right when I'm typing this up haha

Yeah, I judge the shit out of people. Whether they're attractive or not, whether they look cowardly, insecure, or if they're a "bro". It's something that just pops into my head upon first sight. Sometimes I'll look at a couple and be like: They have freaky sex. I can tell. As far as regular relations and friendship, I believe this is just an on-the-spot assessment that is frequently disproved. I've had the opportunity in the past several years to meet a HUGE variety of people of various genders, sexual orientations, races, socioeconomic backgrounds, religions, ability levels, etc. What I've noticed is that most people, although they may be somewhat boring on the outside, have a very rich stew of shit going on underneath, and most are decent people despite their flaws. So I like to think that I don't let my inherent biases flavor my actions, but I'm sure they do on some level. In general I either like you, or I don't, and it has nothing to do with how you look.

As far as romantic/sexual relations, physicality is certainly a large component. The first thing I notice about someone is how they look, and that can go a long way towards whether or not I'm attracted to someone. Love is NOT blind. At all. Or maybe I just don't know what love is. I related to what TC said (I think it was her) about not being attracted to the "conventional" attractiveness. A lot of the women that my friends all ogle over I find unattractive, and a lot of the women I ogle over my friends think there's something really strange about me. I like nice faces. This is important to me. I consider myself an 8+, but I do not require my women to be on that same level, only close. I like thicker bodies than what gets paraded across the television. I like me a fluffy belly, but morbidly obese doesn't do it for me either. Also, I get seriously turned on by those cute tufts of hair under the armpit, and most women I have to ask them to regrow their pubic hair because apparently it's attractive NOT to have any. Teh fux. I like fuzzy legs too, but in the summer time it's hard to get a woman to commit to that.

Now, on to the disability component of things. There is some surface level assessment I have noticed, where people assume I am more helpless than I am, or I need help with most things, or that I'm super sad about the fact that I'm paralyzed. This assessment is very quickly turned on its head, since I need help with very little, and I'm pretty okay with my place in life. I think it's MAYBE reasonable, or understandable for people to assume otherwise, but it still pisses me off.