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Post by elbs on Feb 11, 2018 8:55:04 GMT -5
I've been puzzling over why many PWDs hate devs since before I joined ParaDevo. I can see hating the creeps who make creepy comments and steal selfies and so forth, but I've seen PWDs who say categorically that no matter how you act, being a dev is bad, and I don't get it.
But I just thought of something that might explain some of the female PWDs hating devs.
It seems like a lot of our society expects women to control who is attracted to them. I was told that I should wear a bra (even though I can't because of autism) because my boobs will distract men/boys (the first time I was told this, I was 15). People ask what a rape victim was wearing, as if wearing the wrong thing makes someone rape you. Cosmo magazine advertises tricks to make it so the man you want won't be able to resist you.
So, for a woman who has internalized that she's supposed to control who finds her attractive or else she deserves to be violated, it might feel really terrifying to realize that something she has absolutely no control over - being visibly disabled - is attractive to some people. If you don't want to be seen as too sexy, you can wear a less-revealing top, looser pants, a bra, etc, but you can't stop using a wheelchair if you need it to get around. So devs of disabled women will find you hot anyway.
And especially since disabled women are particularly likely to be sexually assaulted (usually not by devs, but still). I know as a CSA survivor, the idea that being sexy means I am automatically open to sex is especially terrifying for a survivor of sexual violence. There are a lot of survivors, myself included, who deliberately avoid looking sexy as much as possible because the idea of someone finding us sexy when we don't want them back is so unacceptably terrifying.
I've had to work hard to accept that it's not my responsibility to control if someone finds me attractive, and if they violate me, it's their fault and not mine. Not everyone has learnt the same lesson.
Any thoughts? Does this sound plausible?
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Post by mona on Feb 11, 2018 12:48:08 GMT -5
Yes, it sounds pretty plausible to me. But I don't think you can generalize the idea that women can't deal with being desired for something out of their control.
For example: I was told more than once how sexy my accent is when I speak foreign languages. I can't fully control my pronunciation either and I have to use that foreign language in order to make myself understood. I would even prefer not to speak with an accent. But it never offended me when someone told me this. I was maybe blushing a little, though, hehe.
I am sure there are lots of other examples where women give up control over their attractiveness and it doesn't result in hate.
I think the reason for the dev hate is that it's such a paradox how something that brings hardship, social marginalization etc. can be a turn on to others. Devness is a challenging concept and I fully understand everyone who doesn't want to be desired for something that is so extremely unwanted as a disability.
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Post by missparkle on Feb 11, 2018 12:59:35 GMT -5
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Post by someonerandom on Feb 11, 2018 15:47:18 GMT -5
How does your autism make it so that you can't wear a bra?
The premise of the thread may have some truth to it, although I find internalized ableism a more likely motivator for anti-dev hatred. People also fear things they don't understand. I think especially for female PWDs there may be fear of predators, which is similar to what you were saying. Devs may be perceived as being predators to people who don't get the whole dev thing. I guess lack of control is a part of that.
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Post by elbs on Feb 11, 2018 17:33:42 GMT -5
How does your autism make it so that you can't wear a bra? A common feature of autism is tactile defensiveness, which makes certain tactile sensations painful or overwhelming. I find it really unpleasant to wear a bra for this reason. |
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Post by shape on Feb 11, 2018 18:19:29 GMT -5
How does your autism make it so that you can't wear a bra? A common feature of autism is tactile defensiveness, which makes certain tactile sensations painful or overwhelming. I find it really unpleasant to wear a bra for this reason. Ok, I couldn't help but ask myself the same question someonerandom asked. Being a woman, and with that explanation now I understand. Hell, it's uncomfortable for me and I have not that sensitivity! |
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Post by ada on Feb 11, 2018 19:40:47 GMT -5
I'm from a paralel universe. I looooooove bras. And I like them tight. I have a couple of corsets as well, and I pull them tight too, I feel so endlessly comfortable in those, so supported... Anyways. I just came here to voice my undying love for bras, and my sadness that shorts and tank tops are more acceptable than 19th century fashion lol.
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Post by Emma on Feb 12, 2018 2:22:40 GMT -5
I'm the first one to jump up and down about off topic things on this board and talking about autism (and not a physical disability) is one of the biggest things I consider off topic. Buuuuut I have to throw in my 2 cents on this.
When I was first wearing a bra I disliked the feeling immensely but over time got used to the feeling of a bra. Now I even sleep in a loose nursing bra about half the week. I'm quite sensitive to certain types of clothing - materials, seams, how they fit and all that. I also consider myself just barely on the spectrum. I find it really odd that you say that you can't wear a bra BECAUSE of autism. That makes it seem like all people with autism don't wear bras. That's absolutely not true. Why not just say you have sensory defensiveness and find it uncomfortable to wear a bra?
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Post by shape on Feb 12, 2018 3:28:08 GMT -5
Emma, you do sleep with bra?? 😱 ada, I do like corsets, but as well as bras, let others wear them. I'm not comfortable with them, but I have absolutely nothing else against them. Regarding the autism-bra point... If it's a part of autism to be that sensitive it's not that weird... If not, I'm weird too!!
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napoleon
Junior Member
Posts: 89 
Gender: Male
Dev Status: Disabled Male
Relationship Status: Single
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Post by napoleon on Feb 12, 2018 6:50:01 GMT -5
Bringing the thread back on track a bit – I have had dev friends now for like 4 years, and have enjoyed great conversations in this community. But 00% of the disabled people I know, male or female, would shy away from being with someone who was a dev. As elbs mentioned, they find it creepy that a dev would be attracted to what is essentially a vulnerability. Please remember that disability is not something to be celebrated – like many of us, I am of the view that it brings almost no good along with it. So for someone to find that attractive is an odd concept to get their head around, and yes, there are fears of predation also. My closest friend yesterday said “but isn’t it like, devs just want someone to mother?” and that is the other perception – for PWDs, devs are either predatory and looking for easy targets, or want someone they can take care of. I know that neither of these are true – the devs I have been lucky enough to know well are, quite frankly, not in my league lol. Also, its different to what mona said about her accent, as being something she can’t control, because accents are not regarded as negative things generally. If she had a lisp, and her partner was sexually aroused by that, maybe the reaction would be different however. I think there is almost a perception of “how dare you” on the part of some PWDs. How dare you take a daily struggle of mine and use it for sexual gratification. For them, it cheapens what they go through in some indescribable way. I understand this, but over time have come to realise that the struggle will happen anyway – whether someone derives pleasure from it or not is consequentially unconnected to that fact. So…um…not to put too fine a point on it but…then they might as well enjoy! I guess…maybe I’m looking at it too simplistically in that sense though, I just don’t really mind. And any partner of mine will quickly realise that mothering will get you booted faster than basically anything else lol! So I’ve thought about this a lot and come to the conclusion that you’re all awesome, and yes, I do tell my closest PWD friends that I know devs, and have dev friends, and maybe, one day, if I’m lucky, I may be in a relationship with one. And they shrug, ask a few questions, and say they hope to meet her. The best way sometimes to get this out of the conceptual stage is to humanise it. |
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Post by missparkle on Feb 12, 2018 7:43:46 GMT -5
Yes, napoleon , you are right about all that you've written. But many devs who are self aware deeply question over and over again their attitudes and desires. “It feels so selfish to love the “struggle” just so that I can participate in it, because it makes me feel good. “But then you get answers from many pdws, again very well self aware and who considered this problem more then once from all angles.
“You haven't contributed to my disability in any way. It is the way it is, “struggle” is there, with or without you. You are not making it worse for me, if anything you are making it better.”In that sense, I find to celebrate not offensive word. Not to celebrate disability!!! But to celebrate the “compatibility”, the chance to be accepted (and I mean both devs and pwds ) the way it is, just the way the things are, whatever that is, that unique situation and making the best out of it! |
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Post by AlrightyAphrodite on Feb 12, 2018 8:37:15 GMT -5
I'm the first one to jump up and down about off topic things on this board and talking about autism (and not a physical disability) is one of the biggest things I consider off topic. Buuuuut I have to throw in my 2 cents on this. When I was first wearing a bra I disliked the feeling immensely but over time got used to the feeling of a bra. Now I even sleep in a loose nursing bra about half the week. I'm quite sensitive to certain types of clothing - materials, seams, how they fit and all that. I also consider myself just barely on the spectrum. I find it really odd that you say that you can't wear a bra BECAUSE of autism. That makes it seem like all people with autism don't wear bras. That's absolutely not true. Why not just say you have sensory defensiveness and find it uncomfortable to wear a bra? I agree with Emma completely that what have become extensive discussions of a female's experience with autism are completely off topic and IMHO not really appropriate discussion for a board about women attracted to men with physical disabilities. |
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Post by shape on Feb 12, 2018 8:43:19 GMT -5
(...)are completely off topic and IMHO not really appropriate discussion for a board about women attracted to men with physical disabilities. Well, I have to agree here. Actually I was thinking about it... |
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Post by mona on Feb 12, 2018 10:01:57 GMT -5
Thanks napoleon for your input. I didn't mean to suggest that a foreign accent and a physical disability are comparable. I wanted to use that example to weaken elbs' argumentation that society taught women in general - disabled and nondisabled - to control their sexual attractiveness (through hiding or highlighting certain features) and that the lack of control over a disability caused the uneasiness or even hate towards devs. This seemed not very convincing to me. I wouldn't dare to compare a light speech defect - and certainly not an accent - with a real disability. I think what your not so dev-friendly friends are getting wrong is that the disability is for most devs something that "opens the door but doesn't necessarily carry you through the door" ( lucretia used that phrase somewhere and I find it terrific). A cane (or a wheelchair or the use of sign language - you name it, I'm not picky when it comes to the type of disability) would raise my attention and - in contrast to non-devs - activate my sexual antennas. But these antennas would immediately go down if there was nothing else attractive about that person. So please tell your friends if besides of being disabled they can't offer a cute smile (preferably with dimples), a nice shoulder section, a pianist's hands and an acceptable clothing style I wouldn't waste a second dev-glance on them anyways. 😀 |
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Post by missparkle on Feb 12, 2018 11:04:11 GMT -5
So please tell your friends if besides of being disabled they can't offer a cute smile (preferably with dimples), a nice shoulder section, a pianist's hands and an acceptable clothing style I wouldn't waste a second dev-glance on them anyways. 😀 But why to be so insulted and defensive immediately, mona? It seems to be the tendency. Why do we immediately feel offended?! It sure doesn't feels nice hearing bad things or doubts about devs, our desires and motives. But,we have a saying here: “ If it's not your shirt, you shouldn't wear it”. In a sense, if you, I , all the others feel that is does not apply to us, and we are at peace with ourselves, why to be offended?! Why don't we try some empathy? Why don't we try to put ourselves into “their” shoes? Something that many of “them” try to overcome their whole life, work hard, do their best, on many fields, try to achieve things despite disability, to be accepted and appreciated. Some of them have experienced neglect, rejection, avoidance, due to disability, and we should not banalize that fact. And then “they” find out about “us” and find out that not only we find them equal, but generally they have better start position then AB would have. Of course the first impression may be shock or even fear! In best case skeptical doubt. Of course that they don't understand at first and people are usually afraid of things they don't understand! And I think napoleon is right, we can write here all theoretically for hours, but nothing can explain it better, then meeting real dev, person of flesh and blood, having our normal lives, jobs, hobbies, interests, families and friends. With virtues and faults all the other people have. So I think that we feel frustration when it comes to the way we are perceived in general pwd population. Very similar as pwds feel in general AB population. We just want to be seen as “normal” and “equal”, the same as pwds want in AB population... So I deeply believe it is all very good ground for discussion. And not discussion among ourselves... Oh, dear you are just fine, oh, and you darling you are even better... Support is nice, but it is not enough. We DO have to discuss it even with a people who disagree or don't understand. Without immediately being offended, angry and pissed off. |
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When she speaks about it, it sounds all so very cool... 
Only if there were more of dialogues like this one. 
