Need to Vent: Neg views of devs in disability community

[Ximena]

Hi... I know I haven't been active much on here the past few years. I've been pretty sick and my online presence hasn't been what it used to be. Lately, however, I've been increasingly involved in the disability and disability activist community on twitter.

One of the people I follow decided to start a twitter chat discussing sex with a disability, and today was the first one. The topic of devotees came up multiple times--though most people didn't know that was what they're called. Most of the disabled people thought that "these people" (devotees) were reprehensible and merely fetishists because many of them were attracted to a particular disability.

For example, the host said, "I think [saying you'll only date one type of disability is fetishing somone]. In my experience, people aren't able to express reasoning for specific sexual preferences without stereotypes either about the group they're attracted to or not attracted to or both."

That struck me as someone who hasn't actually interacted with the devotee community. Because most devs I've talked to can tell you EXACTLY why they prefer one disability over another---OR they can't anymore than someone can say why they are attracted to someone with red hair more than someone with blonde hair.

Someone else said, " it is. Some will say that it is a “preference” like one would have for hair color or height. But you have to wonder, why THAT disability only? Kind of creepy.."

The host asked me if I would want to guest host some time to talk about my experiences with medication affecting sex (I'm chronically ill and disabled because of it, FYI). I casually mentioned how she might want to reach out to the devotee community and maybe have someone guest host, or have a theme of devoteeism as one of the topics. She bit my head off.

This was part of her response:

I’m definitely only working with disabled people to voice their experiences. Inviting people who aren’t disabled is outside of the point of the chat.

An abled person can gain understanding from listening, not leading a discussion about disabled people and our issues with sex.

The initial question was whether you wanted to discuss your perspective and the offer is still open but the suggested formatting will not be adopted.

I pointed out that there are devs who are disabled, but she ignored me.

This really pissed me off--and I think it would even if I weren't a dev--because honestly I feel like you can't have an honest conversation about disability and sex without talking about devoteeism. It's clear she has her mind made up that it's a predatory fetish and isn't interested in hearing that not everything is black and white.

I've met so many devs who have struggled with their sexuality just as much as I have met disabled people frustrated because people don't find them attractive or don't see them as sexual.

I left the chat with my comments on the topic:

I’ve intersected (sic) with that community and also with disabled people who are involved in that community. There are most definitely predatory types, but many I spoke with actually had parallel struggles to many disabled. Just as many disabled were battling the idea that they’re...

Unattractive or not capable of being sexual beings, many of the devotees I’ve spoken to spent years battling shame and being treated akin to pedophiles, struggling to have (unsatisfying) relationships with abled people. I’ve met (online) many happy dis/dev couples.

While it’s true that some err more toward unhealthy fetish (typically straight/cis men attracted to amputees), many see their attraction to disability in the same way you or I might prefer a tall partner, or one with red hair.

I’m not saying this to minimize anyone’s bad experiences (I’ve read plenty of horror stories, especially with disabled women), but it’s definitely not a black and white issue

I think part of my frustration is now I have a foot in both ponds, and I have met several wonderful people who are both disabled and devs, and it's like, is there no place for us in the disabled community?? I also hate that I feel like I can't be honest and open about being a dev on my twitter because of the blowback I'll receive from people like the person running the aforementioned chat. It feels like being shoved back in the closet again.

Anyway, I just had to rant about that...

[someonerandom]

I think for the people with disabilities on your chat, it seems to me like maybe they are insecure with their disability which is why they can’t stomach the thought of devs. They view the disability as something that could never be attractive. It’s like some self-hating type shit, or not accepting the disability. Just a theory, anyways.

I think as society progresses towards being less ableist, PWDs will have an easier time getting right in their heads with their situation, and then the concept of devoteeism seems less fucked up to people. Because to treat devotees as similar to pedophiles I think is almost more insulting to the disabled than it is to devs... like I’m not a little kid.

I’m re-reading this over and over and still can’t figure if it makes sense because I am so sleepy. I am going to sleep now.

[robbb]

Jan 2, 2019 1:51:00 GMT -5 someonerandom said:

I think for the people with disabilities on your chat, it seems to me like maybe they are insecure with their disability which is why they can’t stomach the thought of devs. They view the disability as something that could never be attractive. It’s like some self-hating type shit, or not accepting the disability. Just a theory, anyways.

I think as society progresses towards being less ableist, PWDs will have an easier time getting right in their heads with their situation, and then the concept of devoteeism seems less fucked up to people. Because to treat devotees as similar to pedophiles I think is almost more insulting to the disabled than it is to devs... like I’m not a little kid.

I’m re-reading this over and over and still can’t figure if it makes sense because I am so sleepy. I am going to sleep now.

Makes absolute sense.

I am currently chatting online with an SCI guy, 3 years post injury who clearly struggles with what he calls the 'new me'.

He has come out of a 6 month relationship with a dev that he said was awful but the more we chat the more I realise it's more how he feels about himself than her or their relationship.

R.

[devogirl]

Jan 2, 2019 1:51:00 GMT -5 someonerandom said:

I think for the people with disabilities on your chat, it seems to me like maybe they are insecure with their disability which is why they can’t stomach the thought of devs. They view the disability as something that could never be attractive. It’s like some self-hating type shit, or not accepting the disability. Just a theory, anyways.

^^^^ This. In my experience, this is one of the major reasons for the dev hate.

Ximena I'm so sorry you're feeling alienated from a group that was previously meaningful and helpful to you. There are PWDs who are welcoming to devs--some are members here. But I'm not sure what the percentage is among PWDs in activist communities, and probably the percentage is lower among women since more of them are likely to have had negative experiences. Identity politics can sometimes get really nasty among activists of all kinds, and drive away potential allies, unfortunately.

I've met so many devs who have struggled with their sexuality just as much as I have met disabled people frustrated because people don't find them attractive or don't see them as sexual.

This is so true! I have used this exact reasoning with wheeler guys and it was sometimes successful, but the person has to listen to you with an open mind and be willing to change their opinion. Unfortunately the host of your chat wasn't. My usual response to that kind of attack is to say you don't have to date us but you can't shame us out of existence. We're not going to disappear just because you don't like the idea of devs. Don't be afraid to tell the haters straight up "I'm disabled and also a dev. Sexual desire is not something anyone chooses. What we choose is how we act on those desires, and I choose to act in a loving respectful way."

Anyway you're not the only one, there are other devs on this site who also have various disabilities. I hope you can find another activist group that is more welcoming and inclusive.

[darthoso]

Based on my experience with the SMA MD adult community online, I think there is potentially an element of group think going on. I've had private conversations with female SMAers who are fine with devs, but you don't see much of that in public conversations. It could be they don't want to belittle the experience of those with bad interactions. The only ones who know what they're actually talking about in those conversations are the guys from here.

[King Cripple]

A few things…

While I completely understand the need to rant about such conversations – and opportunities to discuss sexuality within a disability activist group do seem rare – it’s important to keep a broader context in mind when evaluating these encounters. It sounds like you spent most, if not all, of the conversation being ignored and/or outright dismissed by these folks. In my opinion, any conversation that completely dismisses certain opinions and perspectives isn’t much of a conversation at all. So I really wouldn’t call what went on the height of intellectualism or a search for true enlightenment. I’m pretty sure a lot of these participants came into things with the same preconceived agenda that plagues most discussions online: these people just wanted to hear themselves talk, and not actually learn something from somebody else.

As someone that speaks publicly about my disability and tries to convey a particular message to a group that’s not always real receptive (i.e., teenagers), I always consider my goal not to win over the group, or even a measurable portion of the group, but rather for just one or two of them to hear me. I feel like this is the only way to approach these types of interactions, and not come away feeling defeated every time. You’re clearly pushing a boulder up a big, steep hill. It’s going to take a lot of time an effort. It’ll always be more rewarding to measure your progress in inches rather than yards. But progress is progress. Evolution on most topics also never occurs in swift or vast movements. It’s a battle that must often be waged on a person-by-person basis. And no matter how fucking pointless it might feel at the time, never forget that you being a positive representation of devoteeism is probably a pretty big deal to somebody out there. It’s certainly a big deal for some people here in this forum.

Ultimately, for all of the Internet’s bluster about “living your truth” and the other bullshit hashtags it likes to tout, most people don’t actually want openness and honesty from other people. They want others to act and think like they do and to support their opinions so their life can be easy. And discourse is hard. So very hard. I think you’re giving these people way too much power if you’re letting them stuff you back anywhere near a closet again. These don’t seem to be the people you truly care about in your life. They’re not your family or your close friends. They’re just a bunch of ignorant fucks on the Internet. Try to treat them as such (I suggest a stiff upper lip and a big middle finger).

And just so we’re all clear on one final point, I don’t really do pep talks. You devs are just always so goddamn conflicted and way too fucking hard on yourselves all the time. Whenever any of you feel this way in the future, I suggest you have a drink or two, play some really loud music, dance like you’re in the throes of an epileptic seizure and when you’re done, calmly resume pushing your boulder up that hill again. The world will someday be a better place for all of your efforts, even if you never get to enjoy the fruits of your labor.

Now, if there’s nothing else, I need to retreat back into my subterranean lair. I’ve been out for far too long already.

[jbird]

Ximena, I'm so sorry that happened to you. It's frustrating when people can be so cynical and close minded. As someone who isn't completely comfortable with their sexuality, I can definitely empathize with you. I wish people can see how much of a positive influence devs can be on the disabled community. When I was in a relationship with a dev, it was far from objectifying, rather it was one of the most humanizing experiences i've ever had, I felt free to share my sexual desires that I kept hidden for so long.

[Ximena]

Thank you everyone. Sorry I couldn't chime back in until now. (I can't comment on my phone.) I really appreciate everything you all have said. I guess I was just disappointed because it would have been the perfect opportunity to tear down some walls, but I guess some people's minds will never be changed and there's nothing to be done about it.

Maybe if I start to feel a little better this year I could do some interviews with various people, disabled, dev, disabled-dev, and authors, and have each talk about different things related to disabled sexuality, and post those on my site. Maybe not everyone will be receptive, but I think it's important to have conversations that touch on devness and show that it's not always bad experiences.

I do think it's interesting that my novel (out of print ATM) has a dev in it, and even though I did get a lot of negative feedback (because it involves infidelity), I don't think anyone really protested about the dev part. I even got some who were sympathetic (and these were clearly non-devs reviewing). So maybe also I just need to do what I do best--write.

Sorry if that was rambling. My brain isn't functioning at the best today but I didn't want to miss the opportunity to respond to everyone.

[napoleon]

as a blind guy who is lucky enough to call a few devs friends, I always try and change perceptions within my friend group, when discussions of devs arise. So many of my disabled friends are reasonable once you humanise the dev for them. They're not a weird girl chatting with you across the internet, their a clever, lovely person with specific proclivities. I have even talked to a few blindness bloggers I know who would be willing to blog about the positive sides of devness. This is an important discussion to have.