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Post by cilantro on Oct 19, 2019 22:57:30 GMT -5
So today I had a conversation with one of my BFFs (Let's call him Harold) who is in grad school studying queer performance studies. We got into a pretty interesting conversation about devoteeism. But, as one would expect from a performance studies scholars, it led to many more questions than answers. These two have actually been keeping me up at night for a while, so maybe you'll be more helpful than Harold:
1) Is dev representation/visibility important? We are arguably in the golden age of visibility. Hooray! But is it important for there to be a cultural acceptance of devvness? I can't help but think back to little sprouting Cilantro and how terrified and confused she was about her attraction. How alone she felt. Is it enough that people are able to find pd pretty easily? When I first googled my attraction I had to dig through so much negativity -- which really seemed to confirm some of my deepest fears -- before stumbling on pd. Harold very earnestly asked me why depictions of inter-abled relationships aren't sufficient, but I would argue that showing only established relationships misses half the story. Thoughts?
2) Is devvness queerness? I suppose this depends on your definition of queerness. I took a course on queer performance where on the first day my professor informed us, "You will not get a concise definition of queerness in this course... or ever." So I acknowledge that it's a complicated question, but accepting our colloquial use of the word "queer," I can't help but relate devvness back. Especially the idea of the "coming out" narrative, which from looking at the forum seems to be very present in dev experiences. Harold was quick to point out that "coming out" does give legitimacy to queer identities, but warned me against conflating coming out with being the only marker of queerness. He pointed to questions about shared identity and markers of identity. THOUGHTS?
Anyway, I hope these questions make any semblance of sense. I feel like my thoughts on all this are pretty scattered. Sooooo... ThOuGhTs? ? ?
PS. I feel like these questions are really only half of the story, as they focus on dev identity and not the issue of how the identity of disability relates to it. So let me apologize again for being SCATTERED
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Post by sy on Oct 19, 2019 23:52:48 GMT -5
My head hurt reading that, but from what I gathered you're concerned about whether or not you fit into the definition of "queer" my initial reaction was of course not, but after thinking about it, I'm not sure either.
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Post by devogirl on Oct 20, 2019 0:16:44 GMT -5
1. Yes, of course it’s important. As you said, it’s very painful to grow up and not realize there is a name for how you feel and that other people feel the same way. But asking people to be open about being a dev is really hard. Not just because devs get such a bad reputation among PWDs due to the bad behavior of some, but because society at large is not yet willing to acknowledge that PWDs have agency and sexuality. At best we are mocked with all the other “weird” sexualities and at worst we get compared to pedophiles. I have huge respect for devs like Ruth Madison who are willing to go public in a big way but most of us are not in a position to do so.
Depictions of inter-abled relationships are good but not enough. First, most people in relationships with PWDs are not devs, and it does them a disservice to lump them in with us. Second, that only considers our experiences with a partner. What about your life as a dev in your own right?
2. IDK I’m not super attached to the concept of queerness. I do sort of consider myself queer but that’s because I am bi, not because of being a dev. Now that I am married to an AB man and have kids, I certainly enjoy straight privilege in most public facing aspects of my life. There are many major differences between being a dev and being a lesbian, passing being the main one. Personally I think being a dev is much more similar to having the vast array of other kinds of kinks and fetishes, but not everyone here agrees with that. But ask yourself, are furries queer? Or people who practice BDSM? Those are non-normative identities to be sure but not subject to the same kinds of legal and social regulation as homosexuality.
Anyway I think there are a few similarities to any kind of sexual minority experience, but a lot of differences. Also you can’t really separate out people’s knee jerk negative reaction against devs with overall ignorance/anxiety of PWD sexuality.
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Post by robbb on Oct 20, 2019 2:10:39 GMT -5
1. Yes, of course it’s important. As you said, it’s very painful to grow up and not realize there is a name for how you feel and that other people feel the same way. But asking people to be open about being a dev is really hard. Not just because devs get such a bad reputation among PWDs due to the bad behavior of some, but because society at large is not yet willing to acknowledge that PWDs have agency and sexuality. At best we are mocked with all the other “weird” sexualities and at worst we get compared to pedophiles. I have huge respect for devs like Ruth Madison who are willing to go public in a big way but most of us are not in a position to do so. Depictions of inter-abled relationships are good but not enough. First, most people in relationships with PWDs are not devs, and it does them a disservice to lump them in with us. Second, that only considers our experiences with a partner. What about your life as a dev in your own right? 1. What devogirl said. 2. To start with I don't like the word queer used to describe any group or preference, probably because of it's connotations from history in regards to gay men. I know many gay people and others have embraced the expression but I'm not comfortable with it. I am homosexual in the true definition of the word, I am not attracted to women but I am attracted to some men. There are no lifestyle or fashion choices that are suggested to most people by the word queer. No gay scene, no flamboyance, no mincing, just a bloke who happens to be attracted to men. I do believe there is a similarity between my sexuality and my devness though, which is that they are genetic, part of who I am, both things I can do nothing about. So I may be gay and I may be dev but in my mind queer is not a word associated with either. R.
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blindLeap
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Post by blindLeap on Oct 20, 2019 2:49:07 GMT -5
1. I would say , yes, visibility is important, but that is coming from one of the enlightened as it were. In a society where disability is still considered some kind of terrible , unimaginable loss and sexuality, especially sexuality that differs from just heterosexual missionary magic is taboo though, I honestly wouldn't know how to do that without stepping on a huge number of toes. I myself didn't know about devotees for the longest time and was told by another blind person who ...I'm pretty sure found out about it on a website like Fetlife. I think putting the information out there without being screamy about it so people who want or need to know can find it is the best we can do currently. So far, I am super happy I found this community and I would want anyone who feels confused about the desires they are feeling to have an easy way to get here as well. It's just .... it seems like such a huge mountain to climb when I look at how much about the disabled is still so terribly misunderstood. I educate, I advocate wherever I can and something someone I greatly admire said to me comes to the front as I write this. I think building bridges with people we trust is the best way to move that forward. One at a time, slower than anyone would want ...but everyone who can educate those who just don't know any better is a good thing :-)
2. Queer ...I find that word difficult to put into any kind of context, honestly. I have associated the meaning of gay with a possibility of heterosexual partners, but I honestly don't even know if that is accurate (still) so I try to avoid the word as I don't have the correct social and cultural context to use it correctly without potentially doing wrong by someone.
Just my thoughts :-)
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Post by Nate on Oct 20, 2019 10:03:51 GMT -5
1. Visibility is important, absolutely. And I would agree; depictions of pre-established interabled relationships are insufficient, not to mention boring, for exactly the reason you cite. I want everyone to have to sit through the 40-hour play in which a dev and a PWD discretely go through decades of life and struggles and shit before their stories finally converge and they find each other. I'm obviously only speaking as a PWD, but seeing someone like me dropped into an interability fiction with no context feels like yet another form of marginalization. I've done the work, Mister Playwright Man, and have written my story for you; now you do your job and tell it. All of it.
2. I feel less qualified to answer this, but if I may: The identity, the experiences from which it's derived, the circumstances under which it was formed, the struggles to piece it all together… Those all belong to you.
I’m of the belief that you and only you get to pick what it's called.
It's mildly tangential and highly rant-ish, but people who aren't disabled love throwing around terms they've decided are somehow better for the PWD community. “Differently abled” was apparently conceived in the 80s by a committee of Democrats in Congress who … well, gee, I don't know what they were setting out to do, nor do I care particularly. But the term has been popping up more, at least in my social media feeds, as a “healthy” alternative to “disabled” or “handicapped.” One disability-centric dating group on Facebook even asked me to qualify how I am “differently abled” – the group is run by ABs.
I am not “differently abled.” The term, much like that previously discussed depiction, is incomplete, nondescript, and reductive. I would even say it's marginalizing.
When we as members of one protected class or another lose the ability to name ourselves as individuals, to identify what we are or have or know about ourselves, what are we to do?
I don’t know the answer to that, but for this:
I love being here. 😊
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Post by lisa on Oct 20, 2019 10:42:33 GMT -5
1) Yes, it is important, although my goal wouldn't be to educate everyone about the existence of devs, but more to educate about tolerance of any sexual preference that doesn't harm anybody. The visibility of devness I would like to push into the direction of the visibility of the "good" devs. Among the PWDs we usually have a really bad reputation, like devogirl said. But I sense that this is beginning to change at least a little bit. People are aware that not every dev is necessarily a creepy stalker. And this is my personal goal: to state an example of a non-creepy dev ;-). (Side note: I recently registered on a [German] website about sexuality with a busy message board. They have a subsection on sexuality and disability with quite a few threads on devness. But almost no actual devs have participated in the discussion, so I jumped in and have gotten only positive reactions until now. Sure, this is a website with a lot of sexually aware people, but still. A side effect was that a lot of people approached me saying that they've never heard of devness and were super interested and asked lots of questions. Also, I met a few disabled guys on there . Besides from the fact that this is exciting , some stated that they were hesitant about devs in the past but now see that it's not necessarily a bad thing. Sure, they are horny guys. But I'm still happy there are places outside of our little world who accept us for who we are.)
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blindLeap
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Post by blindLeap on Oct 20, 2019 11:44:12 GMT -5
I think that's the distinction we need to make though. I think sexually aware people won't have as much trouble accepting devotees. It's everyone else who will be harder to convince. And it is actually somewhat saddening to me that those words ring as true as they do
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erikajulia
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Post by erikajulia on Oct 20, 2019 12:16:28 GMT -5
(Side note: I recently registered on a [German] website about sexuality with a busy message board....) Care to share the address? Please?
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Post by propheticstature on Oct 20, 2019 13:09:53 GMT -5
I've struggled with this question for quite a while, but also want to put it out there that I'm fully willing to be called out on this--in fact I'd love to have my mind changed! My knowledge of "dev-ness" is only coming secondhand, and I hope I've participated in enough discussions here both in public and private here that people know I'm coming at this from a place of love and understanding. I'm just offering a single perspective, many of which are valid.
I do not think dev representation/visibility in the broader culture is very important at all. Ever since coming here, I've seen people with different perspectives on this, but it's hard for me to accept devness as an actual identity. Part of what devogirl says in her answer to the first question is about learning to accept that PWD's have sexuality, and I support that 100%, as well as more visibility for PWD's in general. Combine the two, and you get more visibility of PWD's in committed relationships, or more visibility for single PWD's with active, healthy sex lives. All of this is good! But for devs, I'm not sure. Everyone has sex/dating preferences--for partners of different races/ethnicities, for partners of different or specific heights, for partners of specific body types, etc. Having a preference for partners of different abilities is perfectly fine, and it's even well and good to be exclusively attracted to PWD's, or PWD's with specific disabilities. We don't bat an eye if a friend of ours exclusively dates Asian men, or black women. Everyone rolls their eyes when they see Tinder profiles that say "over 5'10" ONLY!", but those people aren't judged negatively.
I'm just not certain that devness is an identity as such that it needs more visibility in our culture. I'm totally, 100% biased as a PWD of course, and I'd love to hear a dev's perspective on this, but my thinking is that with a growing awareness of PWDs' sexuality, and acceptance of those that are attracted to them, devness as a concept wouldn't need to be as emphasized as much. Places like PD are absolutely needed right now, for people to discuss and discover their attraction to PWD's in relative privacy in the context of a culture that isn't forgiving towards people with sexualities or sexual attractions that differ outside the "norm". But I think those with that attraction might be tempted to define themselves by it and turn it into a defining characteristic, when really its just a normal part of human sexuality that unfortunately is taboo.
I don't have that attraction (but I'm all for others having it of course haha) and I can't deny someone an identity if it's truly held, but it's just a question I've had in my head since I've found this place. Hopefully we can someday live in a world where an attraction to PWD's is the same as an attraction to any other characteristic. I'm open to all other perspectives, though.
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Post by cilantro on Oct 21, 2019 20:17:40 GMT -5
Just wanted to thank everyone for their answers! It's been a great brain storm sesh!
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Post by feelsunshine on Oct 22, 2019 3:31:19 GMT -5
First of all, I have to admit that it took a while of a "dev-evolution" to say what I am going to say now and I think this was society's fault if there's a need to blame it on something. For some reason, most devs grew up and thought that something was wrong with them for having this special attraction. So was I. I never talked to people about the attraction until the beginning of this year when I found PD which helped me a lot to figure out about myself. When I first started to talk to friends about my attraction, for my inner me, it felt like "coming out", since I had no idea about how they would react. But the more friends I talked to and they are really understanding, my feelings about how devness feels in society has changed. And, I don't like the word queer. First because I think there's no real definition to it - well, it's apart from the normal. But what is the normal??? Next, and that's the big point for me: I wouldn't want to say that I'm queer for the fact that I am attracted to PWDs. Because that makes the PWD someone apart from the normal, right? And that's totally not the way its supposed to be. propheticstature I love your post. Thanks!
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blindLeap
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Post by blindLeap on Oct 22, 2019 3:48:33 GMT -5
First of all, I have to admit that it took a while of a "dev-evolution" to say what I am going to say now and I think this was society's fault if there's a need to blame it on something. And, I don't like the word queer. First because I think there's no real definition to it - well, it's apart from the normal. But what is the normal??? Next, and that's the big point for me: I wouldn't want to say that I'm queer for the fact that I am attracted to PWDs. Because that makes the PWD someone apart from the normal, right? And that's totally not the way its supposed to be. propheticstature I love your post. Thanks! I like that definition and the way you explain it. Deffrent from normal is already a broken statement since ...collective normality the way people like to dandy it about is I would say about the biggest shared hallucination in the galaxy, but I think you're right. Using queer as in deviant from this mythical sense of normality would probably really only cause more confusion and misunderstandings.
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Post by Amee on Oct 22, 2019 16:13:48 GMT -5
propheticstature I also love your post!! I struggle a little with the concept of "identity" in the first place. I wouldn't call devness an "identity", but then I probably wouldn't call any one of my characteristics an "identity"... What I would call my identity is the sum of all my unique traits and characteristics and it's very individual and not shared with any group. But I think I just don't really get the concept I don't think that dev visibility is particularly important in broader society any more than any other preference needs visibility. I don't really care if broader society knows that a thing like devness exists. I think where visibility and representation are important is for groups, which have a history of being marginalized or discriminated against - which is true for PWDs and gays for example. In that case, it's necessary to specifically work to combat discrimination and marginalization and visibility is part of that. It's not really true for devs in broader society. However - and this is where I disagree with you a little propheticstature - we do get treated with a lot of prejudice, judgment, generalization and just plain misinformation by large parts of the PWD community, at least online from what I've seen over the years. Reading all that was really rough for me growing up, as it is for many devs. I spent many nights crying alone in my room, feeling like a monster or a freak, because that's what PWDs on the Internet said. And I still struggle with it. So for that reason, I think it's absolutley important that in those circles where devness is known, there is positive representation and visibility. To create more understanding among PWDs and also make it a little easier and less scary for devs, who venture into the Interwebs seeking to understand themselves. feelsunshine, I love and completely agree with your thoughts on being "queer". I never considered myself queer, don't really like the word and yes... what is normal anyway, when it comes to sexuality and attraction?
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blindLeap
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Post by blindLeap on Oct 23, 2019 2:45:14 GMT -5
Amee I really like your thoughts here. I am having trouble following some of them, though :-) You say it's not all that important for dev-ness to become more visible, but you also state that places like the board here on PD should be more well-known to give people who are confused, hurt or feel marginalized have a port in the storm. But how can we effectively combine those two statements? For that to happen, dev visibility would need to increase, no? Or are you suggesting we target the awareness increases only within certain groups? Not disagreeing with you, I just don't like making assumptions so I am asking you to specify if you would? :-) ALso I love your thoughts on identity, it's almost like I am reading myself talking :-)
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