Intersections between devness and sexuality

[hjfundus]

Oct 6, 2023 12:29:50 GMT -5 ayla said:

hjfundus it's sad that you want to dismiss me as an "uneducated allo" when your experience sounds identical to my own. From your second paragraph on, that could have been written by me. We are just bringing a different set of lenses to a lot of the same facts and might have been able to gain valuable insights from one another.

Not just you, it was just annoying to see the OP present themself and their experience and then people undermining that and debating that person's identity 

If you're up for still discussing, it would be interesting to hear more from you. Can you expand on what is similar? You also identify as ace? You have the pang in your chest? Tell me more!

[ayla]

hjfundus I hear what you're saying, and agree that in another context it might be inappropriate... but the OP did say in this instance -- and in bold no less -- "I'm very curious to hear whether the rest of you think that devness could be at least partly be a flavor of asexuality." In order to answer that prompt, we do need to address what we think of asexuality as a concept. I don't think it undermines anyone's identity for others to say whether or not they personally think devness and asexuality are the same or related (as requested by OP). Devness is as much a construct as asexuality and I'm sure that every person here has a different idea of what devness "is." That doesn't change my underlying experience of it, or whether or not I feel it's part of my identity in some way.

As I said in my original post, I am curious to know whether the label of asexuality has any relationship to the type of person one finds attractive. If a dev is only attracted to a rare type of person, like specific pwd, then that dev could potentially be considered functionally asexual when those pwd are not present and included. Or, that same dev may feel that because they DO experience sexual attraction at all (even under very limited circumstances), that they are not asexual. In a room full of pwd of your type, would you still feel asexual? Or is the asexual identity a byproduct of low pwd availability? And -- does it matter? In an all-female environment, does a straight woman become asexual? I would guess it depends on whether she bases her sexuality on what she is capable of feeling, or what she habitually feels IRL. These are all personal questions, not ones with definitive answers. It depends on what labels you personally find useful and empowering for yourself. What attributes of your own identity feel most salient to you, individually.

[ayla]

Oct 3, 2023 7:05:37 GMT -5 hjfundus said:

Jesus, YES! Please ignore all the uneducated allos who have decided to just debate labels here and feel free to PM me because I feel we are on the same page. I am also somewhere on the ace spectrum.

I have been thinking that since I was younger, PWD have been the thing that can get me off the most without any trouble. I have a PHYSICAL sexual response to this unlike anything else. (I have always wanted a doctor to study this, but when I see sometthing devvy, I get a physical pang in my chest and it jolts down to my genitals - physically). So this is something quite biologically wired into me I think. So if I would describe sexual attraction, that is the nearest I have been to experiencing it. And I will get really turned on and want to masturbate. I am still unsure what sexual attraction feels like, but I'm guessing it's similar to this? Because I don't get this with other situations really. I don't get sexually attracted to people without disabilities in the same way.

I have also tried to push away my dev thoughts when having sexual interactions in real life, and basing how "successful" sex was on how much I was able to not think of dev things. (upsidedown smiley face). I have always tried to keep my devness separate and not let it "interfere" with my (ha!) "normal"/main sexuality. (super heavy quotes on "normal"). I think because it' been such a source of shame, I've never wanted to combine the two.

But I am also kind of scared that this devvy sexual attraction is only fantasy and not something that I would experience in real life if I had sex with a PWD. 

To answer your question, I have no idea if it could be classed as a part of asexuality. I feel pretty ace, and don't experience much sexual attraction, apart from PWD. So yeah, it's hard to know whether this kink is a separate part of your sexuality or part of the whole...

As for our similarities, it's a little easier to reply this way. 

-Like you, I only experience a physical rush of sexual attraction with certain pwd. I feel a jolt in my chest/gut (like a pang of anxiety or excitement) and a deep warming/rush of blood deep in my pelvis. I can find AB people attractive, and find things to enjoy about sex with them, but I don't experience this kind of "lady boner" unless a pwd is involved. 

-Since I have no other situations to compare it to, I believe this is a typical rush of sexual attraction that is just mapped onto a specific body type (whether we call this a fetish or not is another question). I also believe that my lack of experiencing this feeling with AB partners made it extremely hard to even identify it as sexual attraction. This didn't happen until I was in my 20s and reliably experiencing orgasm. Prior to that, I considered the devvy arousal more of an awkward excitement and intense interest. In retrospect...yeah that pretty well describes sexual arousal, right?!

-For 10-15 years, I too tried to push away these "awkward excitement" feelings and focus only on cultivating my "normal" sexuality (again - ha!). During this time I considered myself to be on the ace spectrum, to have a low libido, to have something "wrong" with my lack of sexual response. As a teen I was never boy crazy, though I had crushes and boyfriends they never did anything to me physically -- they were just boys I liked and wanted to be liked by in return. I considered perhaps I was a lesbian but I felt even less for women, so either I was deeply closeted or that was a red herring. Once it clicked for me that the "awkward excitement" and special interest in pwd WAS my sexual self, things started to fall into place in a much more simple and straightforward way. That's why I don't personally think that ace/allo is particularly helpful TO ME. It accurately describes how frequently in mainstream society I experience sexual feelings (extremely rarely) -- and on that point I feel I have a lot in common with "true aces." But, I know that if I were in a context where pwd men were as common as ab, I would no longer share that commonality...lol

-Like you, I too have had the fear that my dev feelings have more to do with being alone and exploring in a fantasy space where I have complete control, and that the "spell would be broken" were I to pursue these feelings in real life. More experience has reassured me that this is not likely the case. However, I still worry sometimes that this mysterious feeling will someday just wear off and stop working. I'll be in a dev low and wonder, "is this it? Am I fully asexual (or perhaps 'post-sexual') now?" But so far in my life it has ALWAYS come back around, and what "works" to get me excited continues to work like Pavlov's bell. In fact, I now feel pretty certain that these "dev lows/highs" are not really all that unique to devs. I think they are just normal female sex drive fluctuations. One could say that when my sex drive is high, I'm more devvy, and when it's low, I'm more "ace" -- or we can keep it simple and just say that my sex drive varies from moderately high to very low and everywhere in between. For me, the latter makes more intuitive sense. 

[Dani]

I guess I'm also one of the "uneducated allos" you are referring to hjfundus
Just so you know, I find this disrespectful, but whatever. I guess, your "labeling" people as uneducated is okay.  

[knicole]

Oct 7, 2023 15:17:48 GMT -5 ayla said:

-Like you, I only experience a physical rush of sexual attraction with certain pwd. I feel a jolt in my chest/gut (like a pang of anxiety or excitement) and a deep warming/rush of blood deep in my pelvis. I can find AB people attractive, and find things to enjoy about sex with them, but I don't experience this kind of "lady boner" unless a pwd is involved. 

-Since I have no other situations to compare it to, I believe this is a typical rush of sexual attraction that is just mapped onto a specific body type (whether we call this a fetish or not is another question). I also believe that my lack of experiencing this feeling with AB partners made it extremely hard to even identify it as sexual attraction. This didn't happen until I was in my 20s and reliably experiencing orgasm. Prior to that, I considered the devvy arousal more of an awkward excitement and intense interest. In retrospect...yeah that pretty well describes sexual arousal, right?!

-For 10-15 years, I too tried to push away these "awkward excitement" feelings and focus only on cultivating my "normal" sexuality (again - ha!). During this time I considered myself to be on the ace spectrum, to have a low libido, to have something "wrong" with my lack of sexual response. As a teen I was never boy crazy, though I had crushes and boyfriends they never did anything to me physically -- they were just boys I liked and wanted to be liked by in return. I considered perhaps I was a lesbian but I felt even less for women, so either I was deeply closeted or that was a red herring. Once it clicked for me that the "awkward excitement" and special interest in pwd WAS my sexual self, things started to fall into place in a much more simple and straightforward way. That's why I don't personally think that ace/allo is particularly helpful TO ME. It accurately describes how frequently in mainstream society I experience sexual feelings (extremely rarely) -- and on that point I feel I have a lot in common with "true aces." But, I know that if I were in a context where pwd men were as common as ab, I would no longer share that commonality...lol

-Like you, I too have had the fear that my dev feelings have more to do with being alone and exploring in a fantasy space where I have complete control, and that the "spell would be broken" were I to pursue these feelings in real life. More experience has reassured me that this is not likely the case. However, I still worry sometimes that this mysterious feeling will someday just wear off and stop working. I'll be in a dev low and wonder, "is this it? Am I fully asexual (or perhaps 'post-sexual') now?" But so far in my life it has ALWAYS come back around, and what "works" to get me excited continues to work like Pavlov's bell. In fact, I now feel pretty certain that these "dev lows/highs" are not really all that unique to devs. I think they are just normal female sex drive fluctuations. One could say that when my sex drive is high, I'm more devvy, and when it's low, I'm more "ace" -- or we can keep it simple and just say that my sex drive varies from moderately high to very low and everywhere in between. For me, the latter makes more intuitive sense. 

I could have literally written this myself! The way you describe that jolt, the way I initially wrote it off as awkwardness, the lightbulb moment I had when I realized that physical jolt was sexual attraction! Ironically the best way I've ever heard it described was on Love Island of all places, and all the girls say they have "fanny flutters" when they find a guy attractive. 

I have always wondered if non-devs are just walking around out in the world getting that jolt every time they see a regular joe-shmo walking around that they find attractive!? Like you described, because attractive PWDs are unfortunately not as readily available as conventionally attractive men are, I feel that jolt so rarely. Are non-dev women just out in the world having to ignore that jolt all the time??

That brings me to the main reason I'm back on PD. My PWD husband and I are separating now, and though we both care for each other as coparents and friends, the lust and intimacy hasn't been there for a long time for both of us. I've been completely disconnected from the sexual side of myself for close to two years. Unfortunately, once the intimate emotional connection was gone, even devvy stuff that used to turn me on didn't anymore.

I've been grappling with the idea that the dev side of me is over, but is it? Surely one's sexuality doesn't disappear just because they're getting a divorce, so why would mine?

I've always thought of myself as bordering asexual. I experience aesthetic attraction to men and women frequently, however only get that jolt with male pwds that I also find passably attractive. And even then, when I'm in a relationship I'm not a very sexual person, and honestly enjoy just getting myself off more than anything.

I can completely understand OP's question about devness relating to asexuality, because I believe asexuality and demisexuality are completely valid and fairly common sexualities, and sometimes being a dev feels like being asexual for me too. 

Anyway, excuse my rambling, it's just nice to be able to talk about such an inherent part of myself again! Thanks for this discussion ladies!

[triquid]

Oct 3, 2023 7:05:37 GMT -5 hjfundus said:

Jesus, YES! Please ignore all the uneducated allos who have decided to just debate labels here and feel free to PM me because I feel we are on the same page. I am also somewhere on the ace spectrum.

I have been thinking that since I was younger, PWD have been the thing that can get me off the most without any trouble. I have a PHYSICAL sexual response to this unlike anything else. (I have always wanted a doctor to study this, but when I see sometthing devvy, I get a physical pang in my chest and it jolts down to my genitals - physically). So this is something quite biologically wired into me I think. So if I would describe sexual attraction, that is the nearest I have been to experiencing it. And I will get really turned on and want to masturbate. I am still unsure what sexual attraction feels like, but I'm guessing it's similar to this? Because I don't get this with other situations really. I don't get sexually attracted to people without disabilities in the same way.

I have also tried to push away my dev thoughts when having sexual interactions in real life, and basing how "successful" sex was on how much I was able to not think of dev things. (upsidedown smiley face). I have always tried to keep my devness separate and not let it "interfere" with my (ha!) "normal"/main sexuality. (super heavy quotes on "normal"). I think because it' been such a source of shame, I've never wanted to combine the two.

But I am also kind of scared that this devvy sexual attraction is only fantasy and not something that I would experience in real life if I had sex with a PWD. 

To answer your question, I have no idea if it could be classed as a part of asexuality. I feel pretty ace, and don't experience much sexual attraction, apart from PWD. So yeah, it's hard to know whether this kink is a separate part of your sexuality or part of the whole...

Holy hell yes.

Are you me? Am I you??

I don't know if I have anything of value to add to this, I just wanted to express how much this resonates to me. I conceptualize (and also compartmentalize) my sexuality pretty much exactly like you do. Out there in the streets I identify as grey-asexual: I do and can enjoy sex, but I don't actively seek it, imagine it or desire it. I literally have no sexual fantasies that would be considered "typically sexual" – I don't have the imagination to it. I cannot think of myself as "hot" or as an object of desire, not because of some self-esteem issue, but because I can't wrap my head around it. I have found some ab-people desirable before, but not in the same way or intensity as pwds, and usually my attraction dwindles quite soon after we actually get down to it.

And then, I have my dev side. The side I keep strictly hidden, compartmentalized away from the "typical" sexuality. The dev side of me that can and does experience sexual attraction, that does fantasize, that feels intensely physical, but that has no acceptable outlet aside from fantasy, and is deeply burrowed in shame.

"Regular" sexual relationships easily trigger my feelings of being broken or flawed in some way, because my attraction is not functioning like everybody else's seems to do. I even have memories of me as a teen forcing myself to imagine typically sexual scenarios and trying my hardest to get off on that.

Lol, I got a bit bleak here (once again I'm in the trenches lol), but heck it's good to find some respite in peer support.

I've mulled over this topic previously here on PD, in this thread right here.

[allisonsr]

Dec 27, 2023 8:27:34 GMT -5 triquid said:

I conceptualize (and also compartmentalize) my sexuality pretty much exactly like you do.

You captured my experience exactly! I think.

It's weird because I haven't had romantic/sexual interactions in over a decade... and that was after almost a decade of marriage to an AB guy. So I spent less than 5 of my almost 45 years on the dating/relationship scene. But what you describe resonates exactly with what I remember experiencing.

Now to go dig through the other thread you kindly linked!