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Post by devogirl on Apr 13, 2008 15:53:59 GMT -5
Devs like wheelers because of their disability.So can a wheeler really take a relationship with a dev seriously if the initial atraction is something that wouldnt be present in a relationship between the two if both were able bodied? You must have a pretty low opinion of devs if you think we have never considered these points. Go back and look through the older threads and you will see a lot of agonizing and soul-searching on just that point. The fact is that devotee feelings arise spontaneously, usually in early childhood, without any regard for morality or fairness or equality in a relationship. All we can do as adults is try our best to treat people with respect and cultivate healthy relationships. For most of us, being a dev has been really hard--it's not just a hobby or something we can turn on and off like a switch if we don't like it. In my experience, a wheeler can only have a successful relationship with a dev (or any woman) if he is comfortable with his disability. But don't take AB's comments in the thread on commitment as the last word on devo/wheeler relationships. As she made very clear, she was only expressing frustration at past failed relationships. If you are really curious about our point of view, please go back and read the older threads, not just the ones in the past few weeks.
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Post by Claire on Apr 13, 2008 17:17:47 GMT -5
I didn't think he has a low opinion of us...I think he hasn't known us long enough to form an opinion, and is genuinely questioning. I was okay with that.
I've also been told to go back and read old threads, but honestly, that's a daunting task in a forum that goes back years. Do you recall any specific threads that are especially worth reading?
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Post by problemlover on Apr 14, 2008 14:19:40 GMT -5
IMHO the whole dev factor changes once you are IN the relationship. It's so not the same to watch John Doe on You Tube doing whatever in a chair than to see a S/O.At least that's my perception.As a matter or fact being in a relationship totally messed up my devness.I don't know if I'm explaining this right.
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Post by andyc251 on Apr 14, 2008 17:22:29 GMT -5
Perhaps Andy you might consider responding to what other people are saying in a less agressive way. This only leads to more antagonism and resentment. I am sure you have the intelligence to express yourself in a more articulate way. Well I felt that was the only way to respond, I was furious and really didnt want to sit and waste 10 minutes of my life explaining how annoying and patronizing the post was. If it was in real life then I would just of told him he was a cock and walked away, I just did the cyber equivalent of that. I dont really care if it came across as aggressive either, I said what I was thinking. Now that I have calmed down and had some sushi I guess I'll expand a little further on why I felt the need to be so vulgar and aggressive. I am really disappointed with most of my fellow wheelers here. You all seem to implicitly fall into the trap of normal society, where disability is seen as something that only entails suffering, pain, anguish and tragedy. Who is this referring to? You say "MOST" of the wheelers on here and yet I cant think of anyone this could include. I for my own part bless my disability every day.. Rubbish!! If you bless your disability everyday then you are simply mental. If you honestly thank the gods/heavens/universe or whatever, everyday for being so wonderful as to make you disabled then you are crazy, in denial, or simply lying. I understand that you can be happy and comfortable with yourself and your disability, that you can be at peace with being disabled and not let it rule your life and your emotions. But saying that you bless your disability is just a load of rubbish. A disability can certainly change a life, and often for the better, but that is in the hands of the person, not the disability. Being happy and being disabled does not equal blessing your disability. You're not happy BECAUSE you're disabled, you're just happy. I'm having the best time of my life, I'm truly happy and completely comfortable with being in a wheelchair and being disabled. But I certainly dont bless the fact that I'm disabled, nor am I in any way grateful that I am in a wheelchair at all. To suggest that if people dont bless their disability then they are somehow contributing to societies view that being disabled is a life only full of pain, sorrow and anguish is hugely insulting, judgmental and downright wrong. like if I go down a flight of stairs and halfway down somebody asks me “do you need a hand?” instead of holding on somewhere to ease the decent. So you are actually complaining about people ASKING you if you need help, instead of them ASSUMING that you do and just grabbing hold of you and doing what they think would be helpful. If people just grabbed you then you would be complaining about them doing that instead of asking first. And if you are so proud to be disabled then why are you not happy to simply ASK for help when you need it. And I know that I wouldn’t trade my situation if I had the opportunity Rubbish! So you honestly wouldn't be completely able-bodied if a magical genie could grant that wish without complications. Again, you are in denial or are simply lying. Again, not wanting to be disabled does not equal being full of sullen misery and self pity. It doesn't mean someone is particularly miserable if they would actually prefer to be able-bodied, it doesn't mean they aren't comfortable with themselves, or with their disability. It doesn't mean someone is permanently thinking of what they cant do, or what they could do if they were able-bodied, or that they are miserable being disabled. It just means that they would kinda enjoy being able to do some stuff that they cant currently do. If you're honestly saying that you would choose to stay disabled rather then being able to to dance with a girl, walk on a beach, jump on a bike, or go up and down those stairs without needing help, then you're mad as a bag of frogs. So to all my fellow wheelers, please get into the fight against stupidity and stigmatism and join me in some crip pride here instead of falling into sullen misery and self pity. Crip pride? WTF is crip pride exactly? I see no reason to be proud about being a cripple what-so-ever. I do believe that you can have pride in how you act and handle yourself with a disability, but that is simply self-pride. I dont think you can have crip-pride at all. Be proud of yourself, not your disability. And again, who the fuck is so full of sullen misery and self pity around here.
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Post by Sova on Apr 14, 2008 17:44:05 GMT -5
Andy, I have to give it you brother. You're right on the money. I think you said everything I could ever think of.
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Post by Pony on Apr 14, 2008 18:25:50 GMT -5
You know, Andy, you really need to learn how to express yourself. Don't clam it all up inside, just say it, brother. You'll feel better!! lol
Sheesh, well, when I read the post I didn't know what to think, or even how to respond, but I think Andy took care of most of that. 1st, I'm mostly a 'happy' dude, and have received some great life lessons from being in a chair, but I'll damned if I thank the Gods daily for giving me this sentence in paradise. I wouldn't wish this on anyone! I admit, I suffer, but the majority of ABs suffer shit, too. This coming to grips with things don't mean I piss and whine, I don't, but I think realism is healthy. Yup, if I had a Genie, I'd give the chair up in a second, but until then I'm STILL going to live a damn good life.
As "chair pride" goes, Andy got it right. Be proud of the dude in the chair, not the fucking disability!! Any umbskull can crash a car into a tree and end up in a chair.
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Post by geho on Apr 14, 2008 19:03:10 GMT -5
Andy you are so right on that point. If they said i could get a surgry and walk againg i would do it in a heart beat but tell that day im not going to let it get me.
crip pride WTF is that why would i be proud of my disabilty when i would not wont anybody to have it i wouldnt wish this apon my worst enemy. Be proud of the person not the disabilty
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Post by BA on Apr 14, 2008 19:14:05 GMT -5
I am wondering if Skookum is disabled from birth or if he had an illness/injury that put him suddenly in a chair. I don't know if this even makes any difference or not. I am just curious.
Edited to add: Should it make a difference or is that a whole other thread?
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Post by Ouch on Apr 14, 2008 22:30:37 GMT -5
I am wondering if Skookum is disabled from birth or if he had an illness/injury that put him suddenly in a chair. I don't know if this even makes any difference or not. I am just curious. Edited to add: Should it make a difference or is that a whole other thread? Doesn't make a difference to me... My sentiments generally align with Andy on this one...I felt a bit insulted... ...I will add though there are some people that have perhaps what it could be considered as 'mental [illness]' in which they feel they must be disabled in some form...
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Post by Triassic on Apr 15, 2008 1:15:22 GMT -5
you all must not be familiar with the whole Disability Pride/Disability Rights movement, to get so worked up about skookum's comments. what he's saying is Gimp Pride 101; basic stuff. next comes a quasi-marxist analysis of how the disabled are OPPRESED by western society.
i don't happen to agree with the view, but really it's common coin among Disability Studies academics and intellectuals.
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Post by dolly on Apr 15, 2008 9:00:43 GMT -5
um, bitter is probably the last adjective i'd ever use to describe andy... from the little i know about him.
just my 2 cents.
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Post by andyc251 on Apr 15, 2008 9:50:44 GMT -5
When I said I was disappointed in my fellow wheelers, I was referring to the fact that none of the wheelers had challenged the view that disability is all about struggle as casper put it, and now I know why because there seems to be a consensus that it is so, and I stand by my statement that you thereby implicitly are perpetuating the view of disability as something that only entails suffering and tragedy. So to answer your question bluntly, andy, I am referring to you. This is your unbelievably naive politicised view which annoyed me in the first place. Firstly I think I was the first person to question ABs comments about "self absorption" and how it was an ill informed generalisation. Secondly, Casper was overly simplifying things in his opening comment to start a discussion. And third, he didn't even use words like struggle and suffering in relation to life in a chair or even disability in general. He used those words when referring to some dev people who like to see disabled people literally struggle across the floor or struggle with getting dressed etc. If he had been some able-bodied person saying "your lives are full of suffering" then everyone would of quickly corrected him. But most importantly, Casper is a wheeler himself, he isn't society, he's just a dude in a chair. If him innocently using the word struggle has you getting all militant on everyone as a result, imagining slights to the disabled cause that you need to defend then you're a little too precious and ready to be insulted. We aren't implicitly perpetuating anything, so grow out of your Che Guevara stage and stop trying to make everything in life about the struggle for social acceptance or discrimination. Now that is a funny statement that goes against all the other things andy is saying. Not really. I have talked to and met plenty of people who have explained how the incident which brought them to be in a wheelchair changed their outlook on life for the better. For some it forced them to grow up fast and take more responsibility, for others it gave them a wake up call that they couldn't carry on the way they were going. I know of two people in wheelchairs who have both admitted that they would be dead via drug or drink addiction/overdose by now if they hadn't ended up in a wheelchair. Obviously they are happier to be alive, drug free and in a wheelchair than dead. Their lives have changed for the better. Many other people will explain how suddenly becoming disabled changes their point of view and outlook on life for the better in many cases. Anyway this is off topic and just confusing the waters. You’re right andy. I should have said bitterness instead… Then it would have been more fitting in your case. LOL. Dont be so smug and self assured to the point that you blind yourself. It is you that angered me, not being disabled. I seriously don’t believe someone who says that he is “completely comfortable” with his disability and at the same time expresses so much resentment towards it as andy does in his two eloquent posts. To me it is living a lie if you on one hand think that you are okay with your circumstances and then erupt in a an inferno of anger and swear words as soon as someone expresses complete satisfaction with similar circumstances – but perhaps I am wrong. Yes, you are wrong. How incredibly naive of you to think that I couldn't possibly be angered by you and your militant ramblings, but that it had to be my wheelchair that made me so angry. I didn't erupt in retaliation to you being happy with your circumstances. I erupted in response to your accusations that I, as part of your "fellow wheelers", was full of "sullen misery" and "self pity" by whatever twisted logic you used to come to that conclusion. I erupted because you were amazingly condescending and patronising, trying to lecture to people in the same breath that you told them they were full of sullen misery and self pity. I find the whole genie argument is ridiculous. Well yeah, of course it is. But just as ridiculous as saying that if things could change then you would gladly remain disabled. I used the genie scenario because it is ridiculously magical and unrealistic, because it allows you the otherwise impossible goal of becoming able-bodied without any complications at all. Yet, even in this hypothetically perfect situation you would happily choose to remain disabled. Thats just stupid and lacking in common sense, unless your chosen career path is martyr. And yes, I might have been a little too harsh in the wording of some of these issues in my first post, but I am still amazed that nobody so far sees my point. You dont have a point, there is no "point" to see or get. You imagined an insult to "disabled pride" and then attacked every disabled member of this board, basically telling them that no-one is as good as you and that you are some kind of wheelchair messiah, leading the charge against something or other. You're proud of who you are, well done. But you know what, so is everyone on this board. You're trying to preach to the choir when it comes to accepting a disability and succeeding at life with that disability.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2008 12:21:42 GMT -5
You're my new hero Andy!
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Post by Triassic on Apr 15, 2008 19:37:51 GMT -5
um hmmm...seems that i recall andy advising us just recently in the 'laurasweetou...etc' thread to calm down, relax, 'just deal with it' when you don't agree with someone online. he even included a cartoon to illustrate the point that it's foolish to be upset when someone is 'wrong on the internet'.
and now he completely flips out, cursing and ranting because he disagrees with skookum...
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Post by natasha on Apr 15, 2008 19:53:35 GMT -5
I must say that I feel like I'm reading a Wrestling Royal Rumble instead of watching it on tv!!!... muy caliente!!
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