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Post by BA on Oct 1, 2008 18:14:42 GMT -5
I would think you are exactly right on that James. But, no matter what, his main reason for doing this is for his own sense of self-esteem. He openly admits that he wanted to be able to be on eye-level with others and felt more disabled in the chair. I don't get how or why he feels that way, but.... whatever.
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Post by james13 on Oct 1, 2008 23:51:24 GMT -5
i just wanted to say that i don't consider myself disabled. actually i do more than most ab's that i know. i feel perfectly normal in my chair. i do still understand the stigma of the chair because sometimes i do feel like a feak because of peoples looks (especially at the mall). if i were to hobble around in braces and crutches i think i would totally feel like a freak and even disabled. i would lose a quality of life and independance that i cherish so much.
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Post by roger888 on Oct 2, 2008 1:22:33 GMT -5
For me its all about mobility & trying not to destroy my body before I get too old.If you hurt your arms & back doing something like this by the time you are 40 then your mobility is going to be worse than it ever was.
When I was young the doctors(must have been about 25 years ago) were always encouraging you to get up on sticks & hop around,made sense because accessability wasnt very good compared to now.With heightened awareness of access for wheelers now,getting around in a wheelchair is more efficient.You dont get to that business meeting or appointment in a tired, sweaty mess.
You have to look at these things practically.
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Post by Triassic on Oct 2, 2008 3:51:16 GMT -5
i think james is right; this guy MUST be incomplete. i mean if not, what's he using to get signal between brain and lower body: his vagus nerve:? what, exactly?...as for w/c vs. ambulating, i can say that for me, after 8 yrs exclusive w/c use, ambulating w/braces and crutches is UNQUESTIONABLY, hands down, way better than rolling; but only for shortish distances. i well remember being tippy, tired and sweaty, hopping slowly along, watching the ground 100% of the time, VERY slow...yeah, crutches aint so great beyond a 1/4 miso or so. i wish i'd been more receptive to using a w/c, as it would have opened up a lot of experiences that i couldnt do, like theme parks, downtown areas. i remember when i first went into a chair-not by choice but by sheer necessity-it was like a revelation; 'oh THIS is what its like to be a.b....you just see something and roll over to it; no worrying about distance, no being out of breath, or unable to talk while moving, able to keep up w/others...'
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Post by Claire on Oct 2, 2008 6:31:38 GMT -5
Wow, this is an interesting discussion. Funny, Tri, one of the first things I thought was...if these guys are walking like that 100% of the time, how many things can't they do? Shopping malls, amusement parks, long walks in the park, exploring downtown. It just seems so limiting compared to wheeling.
I've tracked down this guy's email address and invited him to come present his point of view. I hope he shows up, should be interesting.
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Post by dolly on Oct 2, 2008 9:39:53 GMT -5
hmmm... i imagine that if he is so adamant about never using a wheelchair, he may not be too receptive of the concept of women (and men) who dig guys who do use wheelchairs.... ...watching the ground 100% of the time yes, i was also thinking about this... and how much of the world around you that you might "miss" as you went about your day.
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Post by Claire on Oct 2, 2008 10:33:01 GMT -5
hmmm... i imagine that if he is so adamant about never using a wheelchair, he may not be too receptive of the concept of women (and men) who dig guys who do use wheelchairs.... Oh, totally! I told him who we were, but said that most of the comments so far were from other wheelers. Anyway, we shall see, shan't we?
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Post by Ouch on Oct 2, 2008 10:37:01 GMT -5
I, too, had once ambulated on an almost exclusive and extended basis, and while it was okay, I eventually (unpopularly to many) decided: 'Wow, this is stupid, I'm so inefficient and encumbered trying to walk; it's like making a cat bark - using a wheelchair full-time would be so more less restrictive!' I really saw no advantage to ambulating in the fashion that I had to; others I think push this kind of behaviour, because from an able-bodied standing position, it's irrational to them to choose to live life sitting. ...and you did miss experiences or were excluded from potential opportunities while ambulating, which was a primary reason I called it quits... ...and chairs are sexier anyway (okay, well there are those out there that like the brace thing, too...).
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Post by E on Oct 2, 2008 11:21:22 GMT -5
I, too, had once ambulated on an almost exclusive and extended basis, and while it was okay, I eventually (unpopularly to many) decided: 'Wow, this is stupid, I'm so inefficient and encumbered trying to walk; it's like making a cat bark - using a wheelchair full-time would be so more less restrictive!' I really saw no advantage to ambulating in the fashion that I had to; others I think push this kind of behaviour, because from an able-bodied standing position, it's irrational to them to choose to live life sitting. ...and you did miss experiences or were excluded from potential opportunities while ambulating, which was a primary reason I called it quits... ...and chairs are sexier anyway (okay, well there are those out there that like the brace thing, too...). While walking full-time seems really cumbersome, it would be nice to have the option of standing/taking a couple steps -- for whatever reason. One benefit I saw is options for exercise. I have a desire to do some kind of aerobic/cardio/calorie burning exercise, and running three miles a day isn't exactly an option. Even a PT was unable to offer me any ideas besides "shadow boxing."
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Post by mrjefffurz on Oct 2, 2008 13:24:45 GMT -5
i can take this one step further along the evolutionary line,,,,going from a manual chair to a power chair,,,for out of home use...i know i dont go places becuz of the wheeling distance involved,,,i know i could easily do the things i miss out on if i would give in and use the *mumble*thousand dollar "end table" sitting in my living room,,,and maybe i would but this monstrosity simply doesnt fit me in any way...its 3 times more chair than i need,,,it would fit better if i could get up to about 300 pounds,,,and grow my legs six inches or so....my plan is, when the medicare "rental" contract is up & ownership of the chair goes to me, i'll seel it to some crip that is self-pay at a great price for them but be enuff for me to buy a power chair that is what i want i a chair and actually fits me...oh,,,,how did i wind up in this fix?...it was a railroad job by the DME salesman, the well-intentioned but naive advice of a trusted friend,,,and a lack of cojones on my part....
point is,,and i do have 1,,,i loathe the thought of accepting the degradation of my physical abilities,,,the lack of stamina to push a couple miles to enjoy the county fair,,,attend a concert at the amphitheater in albu-qq....the car show downtown...so i just dont go even if i could prolly cajole 1 of my budz to push me...pride is something in short supply,,,dunno about u other dudes, but it is with me,,,and that step to the power chair i see as 1 more bit of freedom,,normalcy given away...maybe this is what motivates this dude, as well...
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Post by mlosee on Oct 2, 2008 13:32:17 GMT -5
Hello everyone, this is the infamous Michael Losee in question. You know, the paralyzed walker.... First of all, thanks for the invite, Claire. We should all have an enjoyable discussion and I'll get to pass time at work I thought about writing a giant post addressing everyone's questions at once... but that got too big pretty quickly. I'll quote a post then give you my take on it.
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Post by Claire on Oct 2, 2008 13:34:03 GMT -5
COOL!! Welcome, Michael.
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Post by Claire on Oct 2, 2008 13:43:11 GMT -5
pride is something in short supply,,,dunno about u other dudes, but it is with me,,,and that step to the power chair i see as 1 more bit of freedom,,normalcy given away...maybe this is what motivates this dude, as well... Yeah, Jeff...and who are any of us to say how someone deals with that? Still...I wish that society would stop telling us that using a wheelchair (manual or power) somehow makes you less of a person. (Even if, Michael, that has nothing to do with your decision personally).
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Post by mlosee on Oct 2, 2008 13:50:49 GMT -5
Just watching this guy, it occurs to me that - even if I am not in a hurry - I probably wheel 3x-4x faster than he can walk. I can go further than he can. And, wheeling makes me much less tired than walking must make him. It is true, a wheelchair is much faster than leg braces, but I think the speed of my walking is highly discounted and generally misunderstood. There's a big 100 yard hallway at work and someone else starts walking it about the same time as me, I'll look to see where I am when they are at the end of the hallway- I'm usually about a little less than halfway. I can live with that By the end of the hallway I'm not out of breath, my hands aren't aching, and I'm not sweating. There was a movement at my work to get me a little electric scooter to take me up and down the giant hallway, and no one really understands why I am not interested in one. I just enjoy the walk. I could use a wheelchair/scooter if I wanted, but I don't want to. Maybe eventually I'll get tired of walking the hallway everyday and use a chair, but for now I just like the walk. If I want to go as far as you can in a wheelchair, all I have to do is plop myself in my wheelchair. So what's that tell us? I can go more places, use/waste less time in getting myself there, and not be worn out constantly. (And when I say "I," the same can be said for most wheelers.) Can his self-esteem really get such a huge boost that it makes up for all he's missing? As strong and fit as he is, he could be running wheelchair races. But instead, he's using all of his energy dragging himself 500 yards in 5 minutes. Yes, he's walking (well, sort of). But in so many ways, he's more disabled than me; and I haven't walked in 17+ years. If I want to go somewhere that a wheelchair would make much easier, I just use the wheelchair. I would agree that absolutely refusing to use a wheelchair under any circumstance would put a limitation on my life. When I was first learning to live my life functionally walking it was important to walk as much as possible to improve my technique; it was like burning the boats. Now that I've pretty much fulfilled my paralyzed walking potential, I have a different mindset. For instance I like to use the electric cart at the grocery store because I'd rather relax while I shop instead of pushing a cart. I don’t’ walk 100% of the time anymore, but it’s still the majority of the time. I went 3 years 100% wheelchair free(2003-2006), once I got married in 2006 I used the wheelchair for the first time on our Honeymoon cruise. Now that I'm married to a woman who likes to travel(read: cruise), I have opportunities where a wheelchair is much better than walking (airports, explore cities we visit, etc). Our last vacation in August we went to California and I took the wheelchair specifically for Knott’s Berry Farm. As it is, my day-to-day life of waking up, going to school, going to work, stores, movies, shopping, friend's houses, etc I don't need a wheelchair. Walking in leg braces does just fine and it doesn't inhibit my life. In my point of view, my life is enriched. And for the record, I most definitely am walking On the surface, it just seems that you're giving up a lot. We'd love to hear what you feel that you're gaining I’ll go more into detail as to the advantages of walking as I go on and reply. If I want to use a wheelchair, I’ll just use it. The wheelchair is a mobility tool and I use it just for that purpose when I need it. Other times I would rather walk.
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Post by mlosee on Oct 2, 2008 14:10:15 GMT -5
i think james is right; this guy MUST be incomplete. i mean if not, what's he using to get signal between brain and lower body: his vagus nerve:? what, exactly?.. My lower body is (unfortunately) completely flaccid, there is no signal between the brain and lower body. You aren’t the first person to give me the backhanded compliment that I must not be paralyzed, I thought the same thing of the first person I saw walking like this I remember when I first learned to crawl being completely mesmerized with the question of how my legs are moving. All of my leg movement, both crawling and walking, is initiated from above my waist. Watch carefully in the videos how I walk/crawl and you can see my back/torso is moving/shifting before my legs ever do. as for w/c vs. ambulating, i can say that for me, after 8 yrs exclusive w/c use, ambulating w/braces and crutches is UNQUESTIONABLY, hands down, way better than rolling; but only for shortish distances. I feel the same way, I would rather ambulate with braces for the most part. Every one's definition of short distances is different I'm sure, for me its anything less than a 15-20 minute walk. If its anymore than than I'd rather use a wheelchair and turn a 20 minute walk into a 5 minute or less ride. But the vast majority of the places I need to go fall into the less than 15-20 minute walk category.
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