rman
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Post by rman on Sept 10, 2005 17:30:33 GMT -5
I certainly hope my posts have come across as respectful to devs as better dev-crip understanding is essential but I thought I would start a different thread. I understand that most/many here are married or feel most crips don't meet their high standards or whatever but for born crips in particular, high schools where they are integrated provide opportunities for interaction and even romance. I didn't date in high school (although I was lucky for my age to have been integrated in kindergarten right at the beginning unlike many others my age so I think the born/new crip distinction is important to bear in mind) and wasn't aware of any devs back in the 1980s but I am curious to what extent devs here made a genuine effort to date crips in high school? If you didn't, is it because (i) there were not any because your hs was inaccessible or (ii) there were but you didn't because they didn't meet your standards (iii) there were but you were not ready to come out as a dev. If you did date crips, what happened? Did you tell him you're a dev? Why did you break up? Particularly for Americans, integration is now about thirty years old (in theory anyway) so at least the younger demographics here must have had a chance. Given the enormous unemployment rates that have an impact in adulthood for most disabled people (I say this as a lawyer with sb; disabled professionals born with disabilities are rare), it seems obvious high schools are the best chance for egalitarian and genuine relationships.
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Post by V on Sept 10, 2005 17:47:06 GMT -5
I think this question and that it's even being asked assumes one hell of a lot.
1. I think women are unlikely to pursue a guy in high school. From my experience, the social norms prevail and such social norms dictate guys asking girls out. Insecurities reinforce this. There are obviously exceptions to this rule. 2. Everyone's confused about sex in high school. Everyone. E V E R Y O N E. When I was in hs a few of my friends came out as being gay. This was very difficult because they were immediately separating themselves from others. Drawing a line between themselves and those with more conventional sexuality. And that's with a generally socially accepted sexual difference. Assuming that women are going to have figured out that this is their preference to the point that they're willing to just come out and say it to the unlikely objects of their fascination in a time when EVERYONE is vulnerable and sexually confused is far fetched. 3. High school is largely about conforming. I'm not going to even expand on this because we all know what it means.
So. Did I date crips? No. Did I date? No. Was my hs accessible? 100%. Were there disabled guys there? Like, one, in the four years I went to school there. Did I find him attractive? No. Does this mean he didn't 'meet my standards'? My sixteen year old standards? Did I even know what those were? Was I even aware of them? Was anyone capable of meeting those standards?
HS kids are stupid. They're narcisstic. They don't know what the hell they want.
I don't even think that's even particularly pertinent to the disabled. It's just one of those universal 'teenagers are stupid' truths.
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Post by LadyLuvsParas on Sept 10, 2005 18:55:38 GMT -5
Here here V! Wonderful response. High school was a terrible terrible time of life for me and I wouldn't go back if ya paid me cash money!!! As for rman's question, there was a guy w/a disability there. I did find him quite attractive. But I was an freshman when he was a senior and I didn't think I stood a chance even if I'd had the slightest clue how to approach him! I doubt many of us are terribly savvy at that age.
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Post by devogirl on Sept 10, 2005 20:33:13 GMT -5
Right on, V! I too didn't date anyone in high school, disabled or otherwise. At that time my devo desires were deeply, deeply repressed, to the point where I couldn't even watch a movie with a disabled character (much as I wanted to). I was convinced I was the only one in the whole world with such sick desires, and I would never, ever tell anyone. I didn't even start thinking about my desires or trying to make sense of them until my senior year in college, when I was 21. Yeah, high school wasn't a happy time. There was only one disabled student in my hs, a girl. Even if there had been a guy, and even if I had dated him, I would never have told him. I dated a blind guy when I was 22-23 and I never told him either, not only because I was terrified he would hate me, but also because it was before I found out about devotees. I literally lacked the language to talk about it. Much as we all hate the word devotee, at least we now have have a common language.
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Post by Q on Sept 10, 2005 22:15:54 GMT -5
rman, I'm not saying this to be a bitch or anything but: your questions come off as very accusatory. maybe I like disabled men better, but I date who I WANT and I'm not going to settle for someone I don't connect with. you act like there are crips falling from the trees but I'm here to tell you that it ain't so. in my day to day life, how many disable guys have I met? two. and to go out with either one of them would have taken an act of aggressiveness on my part thats just hnot my personality.
there were no disabled guys in my high school. I'm not sure whether it was accessible or not but I went to a big school so even if there were such a guy I would have had to become a borderline stalker just to get to know him. is this what you want, rman? for us to start stalking every disabled guy we see for the chance to get to date him?
even on the internet it's hard, even with sites like this. maybe you don't understand as a guy, but it's scary for a woman to arrange a meeting with someone she met on the internet.
sorry. it just irritates me because it's hard on our end as well and the fact that some of us have quit waiting around and found love elsewhere isn't our fault.
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rman
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Post by rman on Sept 10, 2005 23:44:48 GMT -5
Well that certainly wasn't my intention so I really think it has more to do with the reader than my polite post. I think this has to do with a number of factors. I don't think this is a female only space (to say the least since the founder as I understand it is male) but it does seem to function more of a space where married and single devs talk to each other for support and read kinky fantasy stories (ranging from mild to s+m type stories at Tales from the Dark Side) rather than a place where crips and devs can talk to each other. But I think inevitably any of these topics are inherently extremely controversial. What I will say is I find it astonishing a dev of mobility impaired people can say she doesn't even know whether their high school is accessible or not. As an activist of disability rights, I expect everyone, dev or not, to know about wheelchair access. I had many different points but I think the most obvious insight I get from this thread are two:
1. The incredible passion from the letters indicating how hard it is to be a dev. Having said that, I think sociological studies show, at least in the US, most teenagers DO date and have intercourse in high school so I hardly think the stories above, while eloquent, are typical unless teen devs anomalously date nobody. That hardly seems likely.
2. Except for the first poster, none really commented on access. My experience is in most locations in Canada, one high school per school district is identified as the super accessible one and all the crips are sent there or strongly pressured to go there; it's not really up to the parents. It's still considered integration but it's not true integration. So if your high school is barely accessible, it's not likely one would meet crips even if one is ready. But as for the bottom line message of the last poster, I guess I see single crips everywhere so I find it hard to believe that not even one or two might meet a dev's standards.
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devboy
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dirty bandwidth thief / hot lady
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Post by devboy on Sept 11, 2005 0:09:06 GMT -5
rman, you've gotta be kidding me. yea, theres plenty of sex going on in high school, but how much of it is kinky fucked-up sex, and how much is just johnny football captain pressuring suzy cheerleader into finally going all the way?
i mean, as a gay man, i was NOT ready to date in high school and was scared shitless of persecution, as someone already mentioned. yea you hear about teens having sex, but you don't hear about them very often breaking out the handcuffs, having threesomes and orgies, or pissing on each other for sexual pleasure. like it or not, devoteeism is a sexual kink, and most people just don't develop their kinky sides until college or beyond.
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Post by Q on Sept 11, 2005 0:11:24 GMT -5
you are astonished I didn't know if my hs was accessible or not? well, in retrospect, I guess it was, because I remember kids used to smoke in the handicapped stalls of the bathroom, but that was like a MILLION years ago and like the other women, I wasn't that aware of what I liked back then so who the fuck knows? whether or not my hs was accessible was the last thing on my mind when I was 15, believe me. and yes, I dated in hs, but I never asked a guy out and mostly got ignored by the guy I was crushing on.
Devogirl said something about some guys having a chip on their shoulder. I don't know what your experience is, rman, but you have a chip on your shoulder bigtime. that other guy sidney came on and was supernice and posted his pic, but from your very first post you came out and said all us devos are bitches with too high standards. you never even gave us a chance.
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Post by Mini on Sept 11, 2005 0:33:56 GMT -5
Congrats, rman. As the guy who is self-proclaimed "very pro-dev", you've been the first person to succeed in getting the devs and the crips to start feuding.
That sure as hell isn't what *I* want...........
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rman
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Post by rman on Sept 11, 2005 0:41:37 GMT -5
I am very pro dev (unlike the vast majority of disabled people, especially females who simply hate devs for the most part) and never called anyone profane words. And I found the first few posts on this thread very eloquent (but strange since we all know most heterosexual (I can't speak about gay/lesbians) teens who are AB have sex/date in American high schools; that's what every study shows). I started this thread because I have known many many devs before this site existed and some, believe it or not, did at least try to date disabled guys in their high schools.
I guess the main difference is I post about controversial things and come from a "rights" and anti-discrimination perspective. I am completely serious when I say I think teens should know whether their high school is accessible or not.
Perhaps my style is too blunt for some tastes but I think the fault lies as much with readers as with my expression.
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devboy
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Post by devboy on Sept 11, 2005 0:56:39 GMT -5
Congrats, rman. As the guy who is self-proclaimed "very pro-dev", you've been the first person to succeed in getting the devs and the crips to start feuding. heh. The devsand the crips. Sounds like gang warfare ...
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Post by devogirl on Sept 11, 2005 1:03:26 GMT -5
So if your high school is barely accessible, it's not likely one would meet crips even if one is ready. But as for the bottom line message of the last poster, I guess I see single crips everywhere so I find it hard to believe that not even one or two might meet a dev's standards. Well my high school was accessible but there was only that one girl wheelchair user. Why weren't there more? I don't know. And do you really expect that at age 14 I would say to my parents, "You know, I have this fetish for disabled guys, so I really think you need to send me to a high school that has a large number of disabled students so I can meet a boyfriend." ? Anyway I refuse to be criticized for things I thought about or didn't think about when I was a teenager. That's ancient history, man. And yes, I too see disabled guys everywhere. Some of them are really hot, and may even be single. But I see them across the street, as I'm running for the bus, or in restaurants with their families, or driving the other way in their cars, etc. Believe me, if there is the slightest context to strike up a conversation, I do, and have done. But when you're using the ATM, or running late for a meeting, do you really want a complete stranger to walk up to you and say, "Hi, your disability turns me on, let's date!"? I don't think so. Just seeing someone from a distance does not equate a dating possibility for anyone. As for having standards, there is nothing wrong with that. You don't want to be with a woman who is interested only in your disability and nothing else, or who will date any guy who will have her.
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Post by Sean on Sept 11, 2005 2:02:10 GMT -5
Having worked in the disability rights field for a decade, I too come from the anti-discrimination perspective. That said, I'm not too sure what that perspective has to do with the topic at hand. I am not surprised that teens wouldn't know if a school is, or isn't accessible. Heck, how many parents of children with disabilities know about access? How many wheelers *really* know what is, or isn't accessible? They know what works for *them*, because it's part of their every day life experience. Before using the chair *I* was ignorant of access issues. And I was interested in the topic. Just not something you really consider, unless you make a concerted effort. To draw a poor analogy, if someone's attracted to redheads, do they know the issues associated with that, such as they burn in the sun faster, or tend to go grey sooner? <shrug> I bet not. Throw in the mix a teen, that may have realised that they were attracted by folks with disabilities, but probably haven't really consciously identified this attraction. It's just too difficult a mess. And I have to agree, most teens would be too embarassed to admit something like this. I don't think there's anything wrong per se with being a devotee (that is, being one is not the problem, it's how you handle yourself as a dev that can be a problem). But as a kid, and so many adults I hear from through my site, people are ashamed of being attracted to gimps. We may be in the year 2005, but society is *far* from ready to accept people with disabilities, and therefore, if you're attracted to someone who would be "better dead than disabled", well... it's not surprising teens don't speak about it. As far as "standards"... Yes, there are a lot of single folks with disabilities. But the opportunities to meet people with disabilities are not endless. It's actually pretty difficult. And it's hard enough to find someone really compatible without the disability/no disability aspect. So I really don't think it comes down to gimp exclusion because of standards. It's more a question of missed opportunities. My 2 cents. I'll stop before I ramble much longer
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Post by Lee on Sept 11, 2005 2:21:20 GMT -5
Just to add in my two cents too, for what it's worth...
I agree with rman that high school kids should theoretically care if their school is accessible.... I should have cared, but I didn't. I also probably shouldn't have smoked so much weed and should have studied more. When teenagers care about anything besides themselves, I think they deserve a medal. (I wouldn't have gotten a medal.)
I also want to clarify something for the newbies. I started this site because there were lots of stories/pics sites out there (paracathy), but none for guys. I definitely didn't start it as a way for devos and crips to meet. In fact, this msg board is a relatively new development... and I only added the personals section really recently. So if people do meet and hook up, that's great and I'm happy for you... but it's not the purpose of my website. The purpose is for people with the fetish to enjoy themselves.
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Post by V on Sept 11, 2005 4:26:07 GMT -5
...but it does seem to function more of a space where married and single devs talk to each other for support and read kinky fantasy stories (ranging from mild to s+m type stories at Tales from the Dark Side) rather than a place where crips and devs can talk to each other. I feel like I'm being accused here of being in the wrong demographic. As if anyone here has any control over the demographic of membership. Further, I agree wholeheartedly with Q. It's a risk meeting someone off the internet. Aside from crazy stalker who wants to rape you (sounds far-fetched, huh? and yet, do I know who any of you actually are?), what if they guy you're meeting just turns out to be creepy? I'm not speaking of anyone around here, just generally. Congrats, rman. As the guy who is self-proclaimed "very pro-dev", you've been the first person to succeed in getting the devs and the crips to start feuding. heh. The devsand the crips. Sounds like gang warfare ... Dude. If we could call ourselves the 'bloods' instead of the 'devs' (hate hate hate) then it really DOES sound like gang warfare. Result!
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