Mmm...

[mike]

Tony,

While your comments have gotten some people 'fired-up', I think it's better to express your feelings than tiptoe around the issue.

You feel the way you do, there's no virtue either way, and like you I am sympathetic to anyone whose feelings got hurt, but look at it this way: When someone is honest, you might not always like where you stand, but at least you know where it is.

How is your comment any different than someone expressing what they are interested in, and you find yourself left out. It hurts, but ultimately you know what the hurdle/roadblock is. In my opinion, it's preferable to thrashing around trying to figure out what the problem is.

[Claire]

Aug 21, 2009 8:57:40 GMT -5 Inigo Montoya said:

I've actually had that happen a couple of times im'ing. A man only wants to talk about his disability... and it makes me uncomfortable. I assume when that happens that it's BECAUSE I'm a dev. I wouldn't imagine that a person's only topic of convo with everyone they meet is their disability. Maybe I'm a weirdo among devs, but if you mention your bathroom habits in our first conversation then I'm not likely to talk to you again.

You know clover, if someone is like that with me, my first thought is that he's probably a pretender of the creepy variety.

[doe]

Aug 21, 2009 21:23:30 GMT -5 fubb said:

Again, I'm truly sorry if my post made anyone feel 'freaky'...labels
Pour as much gasoline or petrol as we call it down here, Tony as you want. It is what this board occasionally needs and what the world in general needs. Whenever you express your feelings about something you are bound to "hurt" someone or put their nose out of joint. I am not trying to belittle people's feelings here but it is a two way street and there are real and raw emotions on here.

We all have our hurts and feelings and I think sometimes these threads don't go deep enough to what people really want or feel for that matter. I am sorry you were hurt Clover by Tony's comments and he has acknowledged that. You and I both know that you are not a freak or anything else that you may wish to label yourself with. You are a kind caring person with genuine wants and needs just like the rest of us AB or disabled. Only you can change your perception of who you are and it doesn't really matter what anyone else says.

I grew up in a family that was so disjointed that after myself and my siblings moved away from our parents it was though we had come out of a war zone. I still deal with the fallout of that today. The thing I am trying to say here is that as a person who was constantly put down and made to feel inferior for the better part of 30 years it is extremely difficult to break away from that and you can be more prone to taking other people's comments too personally.

I know as a paraplegic most women out there don't want a guy like me simply because I am in a wheelchair. It is the same for every other guy on here. It doesn't matter that we are CEO's of corporations, computer programmers, farmers, sharetraders, pilots, lovers, fighters, fathers, brothers, model material, tough, strong, masculine, caring, courteous, generous, gentle, loving men we don't measure up. Remember that we get our feelings hurt everyday and we are made out to be freaks simply because we can't stand up or walk properly.

And you know, it's up to all of us girls here to get to know the CEO's, the computer programmers, farmers, sharetraders etc and dig a little bit deeper than the disability. I've found that that's not particularly difficult (and I have gleaned no information on anyone's bathroom habits along the way). Once that happens I've also found that the compliments come quite easily and naturally. Not only that, most of the time I forget that the guys I am talking to are in fact disabled.

Fubbulous, you mean you can't walk? I'm shattered .

[Ouch]

I was just thinking the other day, and discussing with individuals, how I thought something was going to happen like this...this is the conversation that everyone was thinking about, but nobody was talking about, I think...

...while I have a lot more to say - I just want to initially say, that I think it was a bit unfair to kinda' gang up on Tony and make him out to be a bad guy...really unfair...I'm not endorsing classifying Devs as freaks, etc. (I'm sure I'm still going to be made out to be a villain, as if I'm not one here already anyway...), I just don't think Tony was saying that at all, and to attribute something like that to him just is, well, wrong.

[E]

Windrider = Lex Luther

[E]

The above was a joke.

Y'know... because Lex Luther is a villian. I'm so funny.

But to address your post, Mr. Rider, I'm not so sure I can agree. Tony posted that he wouldn't want to date or even KNOW women who have a disability fetish... on a message board for women who have a disability fetish. I thought the responses were really nice, well thought out, and understanding. People were hurt and they expressed themselves.

If I went to a BBW message board and said I didn't like fat chicks, I'm positive the back-lash would be far more severe.

[Ouch]

Ah, but he didn't say that - he pondered whether there was different intensities of such a fetish, and he would prefer someone who had more depth than just a fetish.

He didn't explicitly say that all Devs were completely consumed by this searing need to jump on anything crip - obviously we all know that is not true, as Devs have stated that. I've had first-hand accounts from Devs state though that there can be cycles of intensity for some, and some have even gone so far (and through our conversations as a whole on this board we've seen ancetdotal evidence from what people have said), that there may be different intensities of Devness.

So is Tony talking about anything too radical? I think if we step away from it a bit...he's not trying to insult anybody, but just making a plain statement that a lot of people share (Devs included (citing how someone said they wouldn't want a wheeler just precluded with disability all the time...)...

...but we may also have different viewpoints about a previous point that also may contribute to seeing this differently - you were saying Devoteeism is nothing like preference for a brunette or blonde and that there aren't people that seek resources that contain them...but I have to say, there are definitely people that seek material like that...consider just flat-out porn. There's porn that caters to just about every taste out there...and men will gravitate towards what they like for example, blondes...

...there are obvious reasons it doesn't work as equally with the female counterparts, and crip attraction in general...nearly zero crip porn, and and female persons tend to take a different approach to their fascination/attraction, etc. hence why the time spent youtube videos, stories, message boards, etc. I also think I do have a personal insight on the matter if we really get down to it as well...

I know I'm not a particularly well-liked member of the board because of things I say (and my loads of stupidity), and this will end up only dumping me lower in the popularity rankings...but, just felt like I had to take a few bullets, too...

...I s'pose I'll be deported from Denralia now.

[doe]

Windy, at the risk of being evicted from the sisterhood myself, I totally agree with you - you talk so much common sense.

The fact of the matter is if you are into blonds or brunettes, or even boobs for that matter you can go out your front door and encounter that - who's to say a fetish can only be satisfied by porn anyway? Also, there are also strip joints and lingere bars for you guys to get your fix if you are into that sort of thing. A wheeler encounter is far more rare and so devs have to be a bit more resourceful about things.

On a par, there's been a bit of talk amongst the guys on this board about Brittany Spears. If you look for stuff on her on the net - are you a Brittany fetishist? Does that make you any better than the devs here?

I personally don't trawl the internet for everything crip. The way I found this board was like Bananas - a targeted search for some reading material. I decided to stay around not because I'm looking for validation about by dev feelings, but because there are some people on here who struck me as intelligent, interesting, funny, RESPECTFUL TO WOMEN and there was a community here that for the most part seemed to care about each other. If I had found the same on another board which had nothing to do with devs or disability first, then that's where I would have stayed. In my view, most of the regular guys on here could teach the AB guys a thing or two about how to treat women.

If I learn a bit more about my dev feelings whilst here, then all well and good, if not, then that's OK too. I acknowledge that other devs will have other reasons for being here, including examining and validating their dev feelings and I'm not putting that down in anyway. It's just that one size does not fit all.

I totally think there are degrees of devness (yes, which also varies from time to time within each dev) and Tony has said nothing wrong. Maybe it just got lost in the interpretation.

So Windy, as one the princesses of Denralia, there won't be any eviction from me. In fact I'd be upset if you left .

[Claire]

Aug 22, 2009 22:45:30 GMT -5 Ouch said:

I know I'm not a particularly well-liked member of the board because of things I say (and my loads of stupidity),

Whoa, there! Not true. At. All.

[Claire]

Aug 22, 2009 11:16:01 GMT -5 E said:

Tony posted that he wouldn't want to date or even KNOW women who have a disability fetish... on a message board for women who have a disability fetish.

This is true. And it did hurt.

But as Tony said, turn it around. Devs have posted that they wouldn't want to date a quad on a message board frequented by quads. Ouch.

But if we can't all be honest with each other, what's the point?

[Inigo Montoya]

Tony, thanks for your additional apology. Fubb, thanks for your kind words. Claire, thanks for letting me know that it's not just happened to me and I guess that's why the hair stood up on the back of my neck, huh? And E, you are so right! We fat girls can be total biatches!

Windy, I like you plenty... so, I hope when I'm done you still like me (if you did in the first place =/) Because you nailed it... (or at least part of it)

Aug 22, 2009 22:45:30 GMT -5 Ouch said:

Ah, but he didn't say that - he pondered whether there was different intensities of such a fetish, and he would prefer someone who had more depth than just a fetish.

THAT'S the thing! The one that's in my craw and won't friggin' leave!!!

Who, here among us, is not deeper than just a fetish? Many of us here have said, many times, in many different ways that we're not just looking for any guy with wheels. (If I had E's talent then I'd pepper you with quotey things) but it doesn't seem to matter how we say it, or how often or what... it seems to be ignored... or maybe just unabsorbed. How can we convince all of you? There've been plenty of guys on here who've expressed frustration with women who prefer to keep their fetish fantasized... which seems related to this. I guess, like you (generally... not specifically you, Windy) don't want to be seen by us as just the wheelchair we don't want to be seen as just the fetish. Like that's all there is to me. It happens all the time with newbies who come and post and expect to immediately score a partner, right? And then leave because they didn’t find one. For some reason I expect better of the guys who are here all the time, but it’s still subtly there… in spite of reading what we write and actually knowing some of us… things are still said that imply that that could be all there is to a dev. This fetish.

You guys do see the best and worst of us. Our shallowest and our deepest. You hear us rawr and catcall like construction workers watching a living barbie over a shared video and then you can go read the deepest angst and personal examination. This board has some of the starkest honesty I've seen. We're all, wheeler and dev, laid bare at times... for each other and ourselves.

It IS an awesome community, and I love the people here. Some very interesting and entertaining people. I've learned so much about myself and others and I do view the men I see out in public differently because of the interactions I’ve had and read here. I’m still nervous and not very likely to approach a guy in the grocery store, but I view them as more three dimensional. (This may be more of my psyche than you ever wanted to know…) You know, when you run into ANYONE you don’t know in public (the grocery, passing on the street, etc.) you just kind of smile and it’s like a moving snapshot, but now… while I don’t feel like I know any random wheeler better than I did before, I automatically look at them and know there’s more to them. More a person, less a moving snapshot. I’m already going to give them a little more thought because of the dev thing, but knowing the guys here makes random grocery store guy a little more real to me right off the bat… (I’m not sure I’m making any sense whatsoever really).

I guess the upshot of it is that being here has totally dispelled any possibility for me that a man in a wheelchair would ever just be a two-dimensional being. I EXPECT depth because of what I’ve read here, the people I’ve met, I may not find it, but it’s what I expect. And I guess to me it’s just a shame that THAT doesn’t work both ways. That a woman could confess to some of you (because it’s not just Tony who’s expressed this before) that she’s a dev and might immediately be demoted from depth she’s already established.

*Disclaimer… that does not mean that I won’t look at a picture of a delicious looking man and go “rawr”. I do have my shallow moments. I do try to confine it to moments, though... and not live there.

[Pony]

LOL....First Bananas, I sincerely apologize for hijacking your thread of REALLY good writing, but hey, my thread got hijacked by pesky Red Sox fans. lol Which, BTW, are still ahead of my Rays for the Wildcard slot in playoffs, but for how long??? hehe

Ok, I really hate being TOO ANALYTICAL about every word I say, or others say. It feels lke the Press Secretary for the President, who has to explain every word, and what was meant. I didn't say I don't like ANY Dev-attitude. In truth, I've met some really cool, sexy women on here that are highly intelligent, and much more well-rounded than the stupid term "Devotee" gives credit for. Obviously there are different degrees of Dev feelings, just like I, personally, Tony Pony, have different feelings towards Devs than my other BOW members. Some girls only wan strong paras, and as good as i try to look like a para, I'm not one...can't change it, even I workout almost evryday. Nope, still a c5c6 quad...I AM QUAD, HEAR ME ROAR!!! LOL I'm not even looking for a girl of ANY KIND right now coz I have a girl Im really into deeply, but I still dig this place, and I'm kinda glad we are having this wide open discussion. I think guys in chairs have preferences about girls/devs/whatevers just like Devs have preferences about what kinda disabled guy they like. II must be honest, sometimes this 'over-analyzing' stuff is too much for my brain. I just want to live and love life...you CAN over-think sometimes!! Now KISS ME BANANAS...but not before we brush teeth! hehe

[Inigo Montoya]

Lol, I should do one of those De Niro "You talking to me?!?" impressions.... except that I suck at impressions and have a strong southern accent.

This is where you heave a deep sigh of relief. ;D

[Ouch]

How about everyone has a group hug BOW-WOW style?

[Pony]

Wow, I can't believe you remembered that Smutty Nose Brown dog beer. I've been drinking Stella lately, and Sangria yesterday. as far as your writing style, not blowing smoke, I just like the things I've read by you. It's an easy read, which I like. Like you, my attention span sucks. I get bored very quick, but if something hooks me, I'm really focused. So hey, anyway, I'm taking some 'chillax', and let's have a big (Windy inspired) group hug...doggie style!!! lol Very 'clever' ohhhh wise one!!! lol

Let's get the Devs drunk...hehe