Book Club Discussion Thread

[devogirl]

Ok, here it is, the very first thread for the devo book club. Our first book up for discussion: (W)hole by Ruth Madison. What did you think? Assume that other people reading this thread have read the book.

Oh and SPOILERS warning, if you haven't read it yet, these posts will talk about the ending.

First chat will open Tuesday Dec. 14 at 8 PM EST.

Second chat will open Wednesday Dec. 15 at ? Come on, someone volunteer to open a chat room and pick a time already.

[devogirl]

I suppose I will get us started....

So I have to admit I had been putting off reading this book for months because I thought it would be depressing, and it really was. She really nailed it--I felt like I was right back in my teens/early 20s, suffering and confused. It was uncanny how similar this story is to my real life (although I never had a Stewart, certainly not in high school). Even the photo of the author on the back looks kinda like me. But for some reason, it wasn't reassuring. So much of what Elizabeth thinks about being a dev, the way she tortures herself, rang 100% true, but reading my own darkest thoughts written out on the page felt, well, eerie. It was very upsetting to read, and I admit it made me cry several times.

In addition to the parts some of you quoted earlier, the parts that I found so heartbreakingly true were the scene where she introduces Stewart to her parents (the inevitable trainwreck when she doesn't tell them in advance, OMG the exact same thing happened to me) and toward the end when she looks up devotee websites on the internet and is horrified by what she sees. Ugh, that happened to me too, that's why Lee and I started this site.

And the ending--did you guys find it satisfying or convincing? I have more thoughts on that but it's getting late. I'll post more tomorrow, but I'm looking forward to hearing from the rest of you. I admit, I would never have had the courage to read this without being able to discuss it with all of you afterward.

[Emma]

I can open a room on Wed. I'll assume it's at 1am EST. Let me know if I should start a room at a different time. I think Devogirl was waiting to hear back from the Europeans and Aussies to see what worked best.

[Emma]

Also for all your girls out there who are new to this yahoo voice chat and want to join us: The easiest thing is to just PM me if you want to get in and are do not know how to do it. You can also just add me on yahoo if your familiar with how yahoo IM works.

[Inigo Montoya]

I'm afraid of being repeaty... but here goes.

I meant to reread the book this weekend and didn't manage it...

It would do me that way too, devogirl. When I first started reading, I could only read a few pages at a time, because I identified so heavily with her.

It was after I finished it that depression hit me. Like a ton of bricks. I cried, too, and was in a funk for days.

I also identified with Elizabeth because I never dated. Not much in high school or college or even after. I had kind of wondered a little if it was because of devness and now I feel pretty strongly that it is.

There will prolly be more after I've reread.

[devogirl]

Whew, I'm glad I'm not the only one that found it super depressing. On the bright side, it made me soooo grateful that I'm not a teen anymore. I think part of the reason it was so depressing was that she focused so much on the self-hating thoughts, which are real, but it wasn't balanced by any humor or eroticism. Also I didn't buy the happy ending, it just didn't feel earned or real, so for me it didn't make up for the sadness.

Actually what surprised me most was how little devo erotic interest there was (for me anyway). In all the scenes from Elizabeth's point of view, it was so focused on her emotions that there were hardly any good devo moments. For me the only moment that stood out was when the POV shifted when Stewart went home, in the scene where he's talking to his little cousin. wheeler + kids = sweet

And yeah, I didn't date much either until I was in my late 20s, and the dev thing was definitely the reason.

[BA]

Dec 13, 2010 8:15:46 GMT -5 Inigo Montoya said:

When I first started reading, I could only read a few pages at a time, because I identified so heavily with her.

It was after I finished it that depression hit me. Like a ton of bricks. I cried, too, and was in a funk for days.

I think I actually might still partly be in the funk. It was not easy to see myself spilled out in black and white on those pages.

[Dee Dee]

Dec 13, 2010 0:22:12 GMT -5 Emma said:

I can open a room on Wed. I'll assume it's at 1am EST. Let me know if I should start a room at a different time. I think Devogirl was waiting to hear back from the Europeans and Aussies to see what worked best.

Just to clarify: 1.00 AM EST Wednesday 15th will be 7.00 AM GMT+1 ... correct??? Which means it will be early night for the Americans, early morning for the Europeans and early evening for the Australians ...

Note to self: "write "world clock" on Christmas wish list" ;D

[Cake]

Dec 13, 2010 16:03:29 GMT -5 devogirl said:

I think part of the reason it was so depressing was that she focused so much on the self-hating thoughts, which are real, but it wasn't balanced by any humor or eroticism. Also I didn't buy the happy ending, it just didn't feel earned or real, so for me it didn't make up for the sadness.

I think you're spot-on there, DG. It's a shame that there was mostly a lack of humor and eroticism.
I also agree on the ending. Didn't feel real for me either, I don't buy that Elizabeth's photograph thing would make Stewart realize that she's not a monster. If a guy thinks Devs are creeps, wouldn't he feel even more creeped out when he sees a picture of himself in a public magazine, taken by a Dev??

I also never really could see why Stewart loved Elisabeth. There was nothing that would express him having deep feelings for her. When it was his POV, he suddenly thought of her and missed her, but that's about it.

There was also never a real reason why these two should be together. What do they have in common? What makes their time together magic? They don't even have particularly deep conversations.

Actually what surprised me most was how little devo erotic interest there was (for me anyway). In all the scenes from Elizabeth's point of view, it was so focused on her emotions that there were hardly any good devo moments.

Again, my thought exactly. I was a little disappointed by that.
It definitely was kind of hot for me in the beginning, when they first met, and their first date and kiss and all that, because I could imagine sooo well how she felt. Or how I would have felt in her shoes.
But as soon as they were *in a relationship*, all that hotness in her POV was gone. It was like she suddenly didn't have Devo-thoughts of him anymore.



All that said, I'm still really happy to have read it and it was such an intense read.

[devogirl]

In many ways this is the ultimate devo narrative: she sees a hot wheeler in public, but then miraculously there's a legitimate social setting where she gets to know him; after a little innocent, low-grade cyber stalking, suddenly they're dating. He guesses that she's a devo, freaks out at first, but eventually gets over it, and they live happily ever after.

This plot to me was part of the idealized fantasy--it's never been that easy to meet someone, especially the Mr. Perfect you pass in the street. I've also never had a guy just guess. Apart from the few guys on this board who are hyper-aware of devos, most people seem clueless even if they've heard of it before. Ironically, even though Stewart freaks out, it's his recognition of her that leads to her self-acceptance. Isn't that what we all fear but also really want, that the guy will just figure it out?

Part of the problem for me also was that they were both kinda shallow and unappealing. She's so mousy, lacking direction and a sense of self, and he's a self-absorbed asshole. Ok, I know that kind of emotionally repressed, aloof guy is standard romance fodder, and I have fallen for that type in real life myself, to my eternal regret. I understand the appeal but IRL that kind of guy doesn't ever really open up, in my experience. And besides, he's really kind of a dick to her--he's constantly criticizing her and acting superior. Like Cake said, they really don't have anything in common. So in the end she skips college to go surf with him? Is that really a good idea? Ok, ok, I know it's just an idealized fantasy, but when there's already so much realism in the problems with their relationship, I was expecting a more realistic ending.

[Emma]

I didn't cry, I smiled. For me I couldn't stop reading and completely loved seeing someone who I identified with as a dev on paper, in print. I remember more feelings of happiness for example when I read about her excitement around meeting him. I also loved her secret book of pictures since I have totally had something similar from day 1 of being a dev.

I don't know why I always seem to have a different take on my devness than many of you, I feel more proud if it than guilt. Yes, sure I work to hide it from most people in my real life, especially when I was a new dev but my inner feelings are not clouded by guilt. Are my differences due to being an amputee dev or being married to a disabled guy or something different?

Ok now I need to re-read the book.

[devogirl]

Dec 13, 2010 21:27:58 GMT -5 Emma said:

I don't know why I always seem to have a different take on my devness than many of you, I feel more proud if it than guilt.

That's a good thing! It means you're more accepting of yourself. I suspect it has more to do with your personality than the kind of disability you prefer.

[devogirl]

Dec 13, 2010 19:03:48 GMT -5 Dee Dee said:

Dec 13, 2010 0:22:12 GMT -5 Emma said:

I can open a room on Wed. I'll assume it's at 1am EST. Let me know if I should start a room at a different time. I think Devogirl was waiting to hear back from the Europeans and Aussies to see what worked best.

Just to clarify: 1.00 AM EST Wednesday 15th will be 7.00 AM GMT+1 ... correct??? Which means it will be early night for the Americans, early morning for the Europeans and early evening for the Australians ...

Note to self: "write "world clock" on Christmas wish list" ;D

Yes, that would be 1 AM THURSDAY morning, hence Thursday 7 AM in the EU. D'oh! I even have a world clock and I can't figure it out. Is that ok?

[dolly]

i definitely enjoyed the first part of the book more than the second. it sounds like i'm not the only one.

it was pretty heavy reading from an emotional standpoint even though the actual writing itself wasn't too deep. i ran the gamut of emotions... feeling 'exposed' by seeing so much of my personal experience in print, sadness remembering the feelings i had growing up...the sense of alienation, fear of being 'found out', grief for the guilt and confusion i've lived with from such a young age about feeling what i feel and liking what i like. recalling the twisted knot feeling in my stomach when i made my first online discoveries (the not-so-good ones) of 'people like me'. it stirred up a lot of deep-seated emotion for me, that's for sure. i was in a bit of a funk already when i read it and it definitely didn't help to lift my spirits. i wallowed a bit.

however, i also had that familiar feeling of relief that i primarily get from this board...that feeling of 'thank god, i'm not the only one'.

i also found myself smiling at some of the parallel experiences i've had. the anticipation of a meeting, the thrill of seeing a wheeler waiting for you when you arrive, the way she liked to unobtrusively touch the chair with her feet.

i could relate to her wanting to watch how people responded to him when they were out in public but then not noticing at all because her focus was solely on him. i laughed when she took him around to the ramp at the back of the restaurant on their first date and then worried he'd wonder why she'd known where it was.

i echo the sentiments of the previous posts on this thread in that i didn't really understand the connection between the two of them on a personal level, and i found them both a little blah. like someone said above, she was kind of mousy and he was emotionally detached. the ending was a bit too 'neat and tidy'.

it kinda also left me wanting a sequel. about when elizabeth and stewart break up and she has to introduce wheeler #2 into her life... and to her friends and to her family... lol

i spent an inordinate amount of time afterwards thinking about ruth madison and how exposed she must've felt seeing her words in print. (it's my firm belief that she has first-hand experience with this topic!) i wondered if fear was a factor in the 'dev factor' being seemingly watered down near the end of the book. it kind of bugged me that near the very end when they are having a candid conversation about her attraction that she said that her friend Amy's explanation seemed the most reasonable..."she thinks that i like that you're really tough and can handle anything and that the wheelchair kind of proves that you're able to deal with things." i mean, we all seem to find that a factor...but it's not what *makes* us devs.

it was hard to read because so much of it was so bang-on and eerily familiar. i had procrastinated on reading it for fear of that being the case. but it also made me sad that this far into my life's journey this is the first time i've read anything like this. i want more!

[dolly]

i've been re-reading the book in anticipation of our chat tonight and i confess it's making me sad again/still.


the passage that grabbed me just a few minutes ago was this:


it was bound to happen. she had known from the start that she couldn't hide the truth from him forever. she had known from the start that this day was inevitable. if only she could have been honest, maybe if she had explained it to him he would have taken it better. at least she wouldn't have hurt him as badly if she had been up front. but how do you tell someone that you get wet between the legs at the sight of his twisted and malfunctioning body?

elizabeth was destined to be alone in her life because of something that wasn't her fault and she couldn't seem to control. how had this destiny been given to her? was there nothing she could do or say to change it?



wow. that packed a punch even the second time around.