RE: A Note from the Mods on the blog

[Ximena]

Tuna,

The incident here came up not because of CONSTRUCTIVE negative criticism, but trolling. As a professional myself, I have absolutely no problem with negative criticism if it's grounded. If you hate what I wrote and can say why, especially if you can offer suggestions on how I can improve, that's great! Part of having others read your writing is to enable you to see things in it you may not have realized, enabling you to improve.

In the case of this recent episode, particularly Sean's story, the anon didn't say, "I don't like this story bc the writing is weak and I think you could improve; try painting a scene better or avoiding run-on sentences." Instead, they simply insulted him; even legit comments (I made one asking about something that confused me) were turned hateful.

It's one thing to have a thick upper lip: yeah, every good writer should have enough rejection slips to wallpaper their office, but that doesn't mean we have to tolerate trolling and blatant abuse for mostly non-professional writers going out on a limb to bare and share their souls with us.

[tuna]

Tabby, I understand what you are saying, but I cant help feeling that its touched a nerve somewhere and I dont think we are talking about quite the same things anymore. Essentially, I am on the same page as you, but my attitude to some of these things has changed drastically, I had to get over my sense of self-pity really fast and now I no longer take these things personally. I have a sense now of what is important and what is not.

I have said what I had to say, I dont want to say something unintentionally hurtful, since I can see that its a very emotional issue at stake here.

[tuna]

Oh, I'm sooo sorry, Ximena, I confused you with Tabby. excuse me!

[Ximena]

I have to ask you, tuna: did you SEE the comments? Because, and don't take this the wrong way, but it seems like you didn't. Have you been trolled before?

[tuna]

There were two comments, and yes, I read the story as well. I am not sure what "trolled" really means, but yes I have had (once) people trashing my work, being snarky and yes stealing it and calling it their own and blatantly refusing to acknowledge my authorship.. besides the usual polite rejections of course...

[Ximena]

No, by the time the author removed the story, there were over a dozen comments, increasing in vitriol with each one.

Trolling:
www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=trolling

Flaming: (def 2 or 5)
www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Flaming

The whole reason this came up is not that we want to discourage negative criticism, but that we want to prevent abuse.

I have had professional writing friends harassed by trolls incessantly in the past. Even though you know the person is a troll, and you should ignore them, they still get to you. It still hurts.

In the context of the PD fiction blog, many of the writers are "hobbyists" as Tab put it, and they may not be used to negative input on their writing in general, and hateful insults are extremely discouraging for both current and future writers.

[tuna]

as I said, we are not really talking about the same thing I feel-- I wasn't making any points about Negative Constructive criticism Vs. Abuse. So, I have nothing more to say really.

Thanks for the Dictionary links.

[Lee]

Not to rehash what was said, but this was one of the comments from the Anon: "Meanwhile I suggest you join a grammar school. You know the alphabet, I am presuming?"

This is not constructive and obviously downright mean. I can't imagine any respectable editor would write that in a rejection letter.

In contrast, this is a comment that was written on anther story, which I would NOT consider trolling:

"I like the story but the huge blocks of text is a little tiresome. Maybe if you put the dialogs in a diferent format could be less fatiguing. Just a thought."

I think it's pretty clear what the difference is.

[Ximena]

Sept 19, 2012 7:32:30 GMT -5 Lee said:

Not to rehash what was said, but this was one of the comments from the Anon: "Meanwhile I suggest you join a grammar school. You know the alphabet, I am presuming?"

This is not constructive and obviously downright mean. I can't imagine any respectable editor would write that in a rejection letter.

In contrast, this is a comment that was written on anther story, which I would NOT consider trolling:

"I like the story but the huge blocks of text is a little tiresome. Maybe if you put the dialogs in a diferent format could be less fatiguing. Just a thought."

I think it's pretty clear what the difference is.

+1 - Thanks, Lee

[Deleted]

Hi Tuna,

I get your point and do like your point of view re all writing counts. I thinks it a positive outlook and one i will try to adopt.

[tuna]

Thanks for understanding Tabby. I wasn't really talking about whether trolling should be tolerated or not (its hardly a point of debate), anyhow, I am glad at least you get what I was saying.

[janewheeler]

Hey Tuna,

I get where you're coming from. Honestly, I didn't realize until later on that the comments had gone into genuine trolling, but I did see the first -- very harsh -- comment.

Recently, people like Eleanore and I have dealt with some anonymous comments that we didn't view as trolling, but still felt unnecessarily harsh. Things like "I liked the old one better" after the two of us had put a lot of time and effort into revising Lucky 13 -- what good does that do us if we don't know WHY? And that comment was pretty benign compared to the extended dialogue I'd had with someone who seemed really set on reading STTS one way... and making sure I knew that I was wrong for writing like that.

As I've stated before, I am a professional NONFICTION writer. I get criticism all the time, but I know how that goes because we're all working on the same standards of professionalism and/or style. This is my first foray into fiction, partially because I feel it's so personal. Yes, I always think of that XKCD cartoon about someone being WRONG on the Internet; it's not worth wasting your life to win a petty point.

I feel like I have to learn again how to defend my personal work as I make it better. Every writer has to do so. It's just hard remembering that not everyone has the same end result in mind. And it's so, so frustrating when you can't make someone see something that -- to you, the person who put it on the page -- is SITTING RIGHT THERE IN FRONT OF THEM.

There's no real point, here That's my story, and I'm stickin' to it.

[Lee]

Actually, Jane, the comments on your story were something that Devogirl and I discussed. We decided that it did not constitute trolling because the person was polite and did not seem to be attacking you. Obviously, people read stories differently and may not "get" what you're trying to express.... this may be frustrating as a writer, although I don't think it's necessarily the fault of the reader. Remember that there are plenty of books that are loved by some and hated by others. It's a matter of taste.

Jane, would you have preferred that the comments from that person have been censored? Or the big argument when that person didn't like the dramatic updates? This could all be censored so that you'd never see it.

[tuna]

I understand what you mean. If I understand Non-fiction writing to mean Academics, then oh Dont Talk to Me of That Beast! But after a decade of the academe, I am soooo prepared for slights in my fictional work. I cannot explain this to you, but I'll try. Non-fiction is essentially defensive writing at least in the academe, and you are made to feel stupid and ignorant in soooo many subtle ways that I cant even enumerate them. Comparatively, when I write fiction I have a sort of confidence-- that whatever this is, you cant take me to task for it. and when people try that, it just slips off my skin like water . So I guess academe did do me some god after all, it gave me a hard-skin...
Recently, I found a picture on the internet that made me laugh so hard.. its a monkey with this really Fuck-off look in its face saying-- "Did anyone ask you??" I wish I could share this with you guys!

[devogirl]

Yes, writers do need to have a thick skin and be able to take harsh criticism in order to improve. But there is a difference between criticizing and trolling. A good example is the comments on Swimming to the Surface ch 17. I thought those comments were a bit mean, but overall they pointed to specific things with ideas for improvement. Jane responded really well, and the back and forth got progressively more constructive. Those comments and ones like them will not be deleted.

On the other hand, the now deleted comments were along the lines of "your story is bad and you should feel bad" then Sean responded in kind and it escalated to trading insults. The troll also said "I would never say this to his face, thank goodness for the anonymous tab." Sorry, that's never ok. If you can't say it to his face, it's just insults, not criticism.

I think Sean should post the story again, maybe after a bit of editing. That's having a thick skin. But please don't respond directly to the insults, it will never make the troll feel bad and it always makes the situation worse.