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Post by tori on Dec 10, 2016 22:03:05 GMT -5
Ok, picking the brain of some of the more experienced writers here.
I'm struggling with POV. In my head since I know all my characters and know the story, it makes sense, to me. I am trying to write in a third person omniscient POV, because I really want to be able to dive into the thoughts of any character whenever I want.
HOWEVER....
I'm struggling with what some would consider "head hopping". I'm reading writing blogs, and there is so many mixed opinions on this. Some say you absolutely MUST separate by chapter or * * * noting a break in POV even with third person omniscient. Other blogs however say that this rule is too stringent and that if done right, you can convey multiple thoughts and multiple POV's all within the same chapter/break.
Tips? Advice? I could try and go back and stay third person limited to one characters POV between breaks, (meaning pick the person who is most impacted by that particular portion) but I feel that this could take away from certain parts of my story, particularly the romance.
Trying to go back and read, and re-read from an objective readers perspective is HARD, but as I do I can maybe see I am guilty of the head hopping thing. Sometimes it's murky and hard to tell. Is that the narrator's strong voice, or am I going too much straight into the characters POV. If I do a precise thought in the characters exact words like they would speak it I put it in italics and add "he thought," or "she thought" to it... If i'm really getting into the characters train of thoughts I try and preface it with "so and so thought that..." or "so and so felt that..."
Argh. This is so frustrating, it's making me want to pull my hair out by the roots. I feel like I have an interesting enough story with colorful characters but I don't want people to stop reading because they feel it's too jarring and they can't follow along.
Any advice is appreciated!
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Post by tori on Dec 11, 2016 2:44:17 GMT -5
I feel that I write typical to the first example that you say, but some people consider this "head hopping" when you start to get TOO deep into the characters thoughts.
I never write in first person, never quite been my style, but I fear I'm going less of fly on the wall and too deep into their thoughts.
My fear is that I'm getting too deep into the POV and the characters individual voice, rather than narrator style. I'm fearing that I'm going too far into close third person and getting into the head hopping issue.
Below is an example I pulled from an article to explain my confusion:
Close third person: She didn’t know what to say. How the heck was she supposed to react when her ex called out of the blue to tell her he’s dying? His hacking cough after the announcement wasn’t a good sign either.
Omniscient: She didn’t know what to say. The unexpected call from her ex with the news that he was dying left her uncertain how to react. A cough interrupted his next sentence, and he prolonged it for effect.
Head-hopping: She didn’t know what to say. How the heck was she supposed to react when her ex called out of the blue to tell her he’s dying? He coughed a couple times and then a couple more, just to stretch out the interruption and make her squirm.
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Post by devogirl on Dec 12, 2016 7:54:54 GMT -5
Third person omniscient narration is hard. Even some famous authors don't always pull it off (ahem, William Makepeace Thackeray, you're not supposed to suddenly appear as a character in your own novel). So don't feel bad for struggling with it. "Head hopping" has become a taboo in fan fiction and genre writing, to the extent that I have seen a small publisher refuse to even read any manuscript written in third person omniscient. I think that's absurd. There are no rules in writing. You can do whatever you want, even cut up your manuscript and tape it back together in random order (why hello, William S. Burroughs). It all depends on what you want to write and who you're writing for. If you are asking for feedback on your Harry Potter/furry sci fi fanfic, people will jump all over you for head hopping, but if you're Jane Austen then it's called free indirect discourse and you're a literary genius. emmadarwin.typepad.com/thisitchofwriting/2013/09/free-indirect-style-what-it-is-and-how-to-use-it.htmlSome of the great classics of English literature use free indirect discourse, or at least include many characters whose thoughts are revealed via omniscient narration. Limited narration is kind of like training wheels for writers, which I think is why fanfic writers insist on it so stridently. If you're not too clear on the rules, it can be easy to muddy up the POV so having this one rule is a way to keep you on track. But you don't have to follow it if you don't want to, or if you are feeling ambitious. Give free indirect discourse a try. litreactor.com/columns/the-benefits-of-free-indirect-discourseStart by taking out "he thought" and see what your story looks like. This is a style that is today more associated with highbrow fiction, but it doesn't have to be heavy. Just make sure you are always clear about what is happening in a scene and that readers can follow the logical flow as you change perspective. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2016 15:34:30 GMT -5
tori I know I'm not the most experienced person in writing. I consider it a hobby I'm passionate about and a hobby I'm still evolving and learning about. I read some of my first stories and I go "Oh my Gosh"...I need to edit this again or rewrite but the moment I wrote it, it just came from the heart and not too much in depth thoughts and I think some people still enjoyed it. I didn't educate myself on writing too much, that came later. I did actually buy a book not too long ago "Writing the intimate character" by Jordan Rosenfeld and even though I just started reading it I like it and it discusses the different POV's. I also want to learn more about writing in depth characters so I'm reading this book right now. My previous stories were in third person and I actually couldn't tell you right now if I used third person intimate exposition or third person omniscient exposition  English is not my native language so I had other challenges when writing even though I am fluent in English. I had to read a book on using the right grammar, or finding different words for the same thing  Another thing that is kicking my butt right now is that I'm working on rewriting and editing my very first story and unfortunately I wrote that thing in first person...HELP  ! So I'm struggling through this right now. What gets to me in comparison to my previous stories is the issue that I feel I can only be in one characters head and it's hard to encompass all of the characters in depth when writing in first person. I have considered rewriting the whole thing in third person but I am at 300 pages...argh... I know I don't have real advice for you but maybe just write from your heart and emotions and give it a shot at the Blog. I know I'm not professional and again, it's just a hobby, there won't be any movies made of my stories (I can dream of that though  ) I guess it's good to have a basic knowledge of writing but I feel the Blog is a perfect platform to dabble in putting your stories out there without too much pressure to be a professional writer. After all the reader circle for our kind of stories is limited but I'm sure there are people who will enjoy your story nonetheless.
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Post by tori on Dec 12, 2016 15:37:56 GMT -5
Third person omniscient narration is hard. Even some famous authors don't always pull it off (ahem, William Makepeace Thackeray, you're not supposed to suddenly appear as a character in your own novel). So don't feel bad for struggling with it. "Head hopping" has become a taboo in fan fiction and genre writing, to the extent that I have seen a small publisher refuse to even read any manuscript written in third person omniscient. I think that's absurd. There are no rules in writing. You can do whatever you want, even cut up your manuscript and tape it back together in random order (why hello, William S. Burroughs). It all depends on what you want to write and who you're writing for. If you are asking for feedback on your Harry Potter/furry sci fi fanfic, people will jump all over you for head hopping, but if you're Jane Austen then it's called free indirect discourse and you're a literary genius. emmadarwin.typepad.com/thisitchofwriting/2013/09/free-indirect-style-what-it-is-and-how-to-use-it.htmlSome of the great classics of English literature use free indirect discourse, or at least include many characters whose thoughts are revealed via omniscient narration. Limited narration is kind of like training wheels for writers, which I think is why fanfic writers insist on it so stridently. If you're not too clear on the rules, it can be easy to muddy up the POV so having this one rule is a way to keep you on track. But you don't have to follow it if you don't want to, or if you are feeling ambitious. Give free indirect discourse a try. litreactor.com/columns/the-benefits-of-free-indirect-discourseStart by taking out "he thought" and see what your story looks like. This is a style that is today more associated with highbrow fiction, but it doesn't have to be heavy. Just make sure you are always clear about what is happening in a scene and that readers can follow the logical flow as you change perspective. Ok, I FEEL that this is how I am writing, yes, it would be considered head hopping, but I honestly don't think it's that hard to follow. I will try and make some smoother transitions though. This is good info, thank you so much! |
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Post by Clair deLune on Dec 12, 2016 15:42:10 GMT -5
When writing third person omniscient, I go by the rule that when I switch perspectives, I need to switch paragraphs. Kind of like you do with dialogue, or how you would do it if you were doing a role playing writing with someone else. So what's labeled as "head hopping" because you hop from POV to POV mid paragraph becomes
She didn’t know what to say. How the heck was she supposed to react when her ex called out of the blue to tell her he’s dying?
He coughed a couple times and then a couple more, just to stretch out the interruption and make her squirm.
Reading something like that would not be nails-on-a-chalkboard-y to me and no one has read my writing like that and complained about it (fan fiction included) so I've always assumed that meant I was doing it correctly.
What I do NOT like to read is when the first person POV switches from chapter to chapter. That is very difficult to pull off. There's an author on the blog who did it quite well a while back but in general I see it done poorly more often than not.
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Post by tori on Dec 12, 2016 15:47:58 GMT -5
Another thing that is kicking my butt right now is that I'm working on rewriting and editing my very first story and unfortunately I wrote that thing in first person...HELP ! So I'm struggling through this right now. What gets to me in comparison to my previous stories is the issue that I feel I can only be in one characters head and it's hard to encompass all of the characters in depth when writing in first person. I have considered rewriting the whole thing in third person but I am at 300 pages...argh... I know, I fell in LOVE with my characters writing this dang thing for myself, and then it grew into a MONSTER. I've written so much it's like a literary soap opera at this point, and when I think of going back and rewriting each chapter or break (over the course of my series) into just third person one POV it makes me want to pull my hair out. Going from first to third would seem like a daunting task, good luck to you if you decide to take that on! |
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Post by Ximena on Dec 14, 2016 18:18:32 GMT -5
OK, I'm going to chime in here.
There's nothing wrong with writing in the 3rd person omniscient, but you need to be careful with this that you don't ruin the suspense for your reader by giving too much away too soon. Part of what can keep someone turning the page is trying to figure out a mystery (not necessarily a literal "who done it" but why a character acts a certain way or did a certain thing).
That said, I LOATHE when someone "head hops." To me, that's not necessarily automatically equal to 3rd person omniscient. In fact, I wouldn't really consider your examples true head hopping, because you're clear about who's doing/thinking what. What I hate is when does it without clearly indicating who is thinking/doing what.
For In/Exhale, I try to limit POV per scene. So I'll write one scene from one character's POV, do a scene break, then write from a different character. This is one of my favorite POV styles because it enables me to really get into the head of each character and include their biases and limitations.
Honestly, I think you shouldn't be too hard on yourself. Write the first draft in the way that feels natural to you and then you can always go back and fix POV issues.
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English is not my native language so I had other challenges when writing even though I am fluent in English. I had to read a book on using the right grammar, or finding different words for the same thing 
! So I'm struggling through this right now. What gets to me in comparison to my previous stories is the issue that I feel I can only be in one characters head and it's hard to encompass all of the characters in depth when writing in first person. I have considered rewriting the whole thing in third person but I am at 300 pages...argh...
) I guess it's good to have a basic knowledge of writing but I feel the Blog is a perfect platform to dabble in putting your stories out there without too much pressure to be a professional writer. After all the reader circle for our kind of stories is limited but I'm sure there are people who will enjoy your story nonetheless.
