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Post by devogirl on Dec 6, 2019 22:27:47 GMT -5
*sigh* I've collected and read more than 120 book over the last year, most of them with a blind MC, few with MCs with other disabilities, most m/f, some m/m. Some books were good. Few were fantastic, others were simply nice, some unbearable. Most were romances. Here starts my real problem: Yes, I like a nice romance. But... they normally end after what I would like to call the "initiation"-phase. They end at: "Do you want to be my significant other?" -"Yes!" - "Hooray!" (or little later, with the wedding-bells). And I sit there, unsatisfied, and wonder how life went on after that. How did it all develop? Life does not end (or so I'm told, as a lifelong single I can only rely on what I see or hear from others) after that point. There can be decades of life after that, and I really can not imagine that they suddenly become dull and completely uninteresting and without any room for "romance" and sweetness and sex at all. I don't know if it is wise to mention a name, but Diana Gabaldon got her main couple married within the first (dunno) 500 pages - and found thousands and thousands of pages to fill very fascinating afterwards. I do not want to believe she is the only one! Is she? From what I see around me, life as a couple can be quite interesting, full of adventures, of obstacles, of heights and depths... does nobody want to read - and to write - the tales? Are there novels (or the like) I simply was not able to find, that deal with the topic of "family life" and disability (blindness/vi preferred) in a nice way? I found the "Heart-Stories" from Kay Springsteen (but she, too, stopped much too early, I think), and there are the Katla-novels "Amsterdam assassin" - although they are no romances, but thrillers (and the author has health-issues, so I fear there will not be more of them). Maybe there is no market for the books I'm looking for?
erikajulia this is such an important point, I didn't want it to get lost in that huge thread of book recommendations so I'm starting a new thread. I hope you don't mind!
Honestly this is something I have not really thought about much, but you're absolutely right that the most common plot structure is to bring the couple together at the end of the novel, to conclude with a marriage or otherwise solidifying a boyfriend-girlfriend relationship. I like to think that I am overturning cliches and stereotypes in my writing but my novels absolutely do this. Oh no!
By the way you do know I have a new novel about a blind guy out, right? You might like it... No spoilers but it does pretty much follow this pattern as well. I had been thinking of writing a sequel for a long time, but now you have inspired me even more. I think I may have to revisit all these characters.
I really enjoyed the Katla novels and I was wondering why there weren't more of them. Sad to hear the author is having health problems and stopped writing. The Neve & Egan series is also action/crime with a blind guy but no romance.
There's a romance series set in 18th century Norway about a deaf guy, the couple gets married in the first volume then the subsequent volumes go from there, but I stopped reading after a while because I felt like it got kind of boring. I think this is the problem, how to maintain spark and interest from external sources rather than internal? The first book is called A Discreet Gentleman of Discovery by Kris Tualla.
If you want to read something about a blind guy that goes on and on forever, there are always Daredevil comics. I'm not even kidding, some are really terrific. There's also the webtoon Flawless which starts with the guy and girl becoming boyfriend and girlfriend and goes from there. It's still ongoing and I can't recommend it highly enough--for a teen romance, it's an amazingly sophisticated exploration of disability. Maybe you've never read comics before but there's a lot of good content out there!
Anyway I think there is a reason most books are written this way. It's hard to have a satisfying romance plot after the couple comes together. Either new things tear them apart, then you are retreading the same plot points, or they go on adventures together but it's not really romance at that point. Also a lot of romance genre readers want that marriage plot structure. I'm curious to hear from others about this and if/how you would change it up.
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erikajulia
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Post by erikajulia on Dec 7, 2019 7:22:40 GMT -5
I certainly don't mind! Thank you for giving my question so much focus and thought!
Obviously, that structure sells, so you are not doing anything wrong! ;-) And yes, I just finished your novel a few days ago. The structure was the same, but the setting was lovingly done and the development were fascinating and not rushed, the characters multi-dimensional and iridescent, the historic facts very interesting (I'm a bit into old music) - I really did enjoy it, and I would love to know how the life of Tom goes on.
I like blind MCs who are not in need of a O&M- or rehab-teacher or a shrink rather more than a girlfriend - I always wonder how those lives develop once he gains more independence and she realizes that she is not "needed" any longer in this regard. How do they cope? Does she try to keep him small and dependent? Does he tire of her chaperoning him? Is there enough to keep them together when they are coequal?
In fact, I hoped to move you to such a statement:
Yay! Hooray! Oh wow! :-D
I have read them, too, and I liked them. I'm not so sure about that "no romance"... but you're right, that is no romance fiction.
Maybe I'm not even looking for sole romance. I like a good romance, but since I left my thirties behind, I find myself a bit bored by the standard young people that are so often the main characters and by most of the plots, that are so alike. Not all of them are, of course, and some still are fantastic. Are there romances for (and with!) "adults"? Even those who have mcs in their (late) twenties often feel quite juvenile. (My God, I sound like a crone here...) Is there a genre - and a name for it - dealing with everyday life and everyday struggle (romance/love maybe included)?
Hm. Maybe I'll try these, simply to find out if that's the genre I'm searching for. Thanks for pointing it out.
Well, you've got me squirming on my seat here, completely torn. :-D I'm not a huge comic-fan, though I dearly love Asterix and Obelix since childhood, and I confess I like the X-men films (and Wolverine).
When the first Daredevil-film with Ben Affleck was published, I went to see it with a friend, to satisfy my devo-needs. Well, I nearly got thrown out of that cinema. I enjoyed parts of it immensely - but I have been a teacher for the blind. And there was so much "paranormal" nonsense, I could hardly stand it - and reacted with loud, incredulous comments and hysterical laughter and derisive snorts and so on... I'm still ashamed, both of my unripe behavior and of some of that nonsense in the film. So... *sigh* maybe I'll try it. Once. Maybe. Which ones do you find terrific? (I don't want to put time and money in those that are less than terrific - at least not to begin with.)
I'll go and search for it. "Teen romance" sounds like the thing I'm not looking for, but "sophisticated exploration of disability" does sound quite interesting. Thank you.
I'll be happy for more hints. :-)
I'm curious to hear about others, too. From what I see around me, life as a couple still is interesting (well, some lives more, some less), and as I said before - maybe I'm looking in the wrong direction. And again: You are right - obviously that plot structure works. So there may not be a market for the thing I am hoping to find. Maybe I should put up the list of all those books I've read - and point out those I found so good that I wished they had a sequel, and then hope authors find my pleas and do me the favor. :-D
Maybe I should ask about other genres you (you all) know, featuring disabled characters. I enjoy a nice historical novel (or historical crime) now and then, I like fantasy (the old-fashioned style) ... but I was not able to find those with blind leading characters in them.
Thank you again for your answer!
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Post by devogirl on Dec 7, 2019 8:38:14 GMT -5
Wow, thank you so much for the kind words about my novel. You totally made my day!😃 I'm so glad you enjoyed it. I've been getting a lot of readers from Germany--thank you ladies! Please do leave a review on Amazon or Goodreads, it really helps me reach more readers. I'm currently working on a different historical novel that is m-m so it will be quite a long time before I get around to a sequel, but I definitely have some ideas already.
If you like other superheroes you might enjoy Daredevil. The comics have been going on for so long it can be hard to find the good ones. Marvel doesn't make it easy to find specific story arcs. It's also really expensive if you buy paperback copies. I get all my comics digitally through Comixology now but it's really only worth it if you intend to read a lot because there is a monthly subscription. I would say start with the ones written by Mark Waid, they are the best. I made a list for someone else recently, so I'm pasting it here:
I hope you enjoy it! We're always happy to talk about Daredevil here.
As for Flawless, I have to warn you, it's hard to get into it. It's very long, 4 "seasons" already. The first season is not good at all. The author is clearly very young, and it takes her a while to mature as an artist and storyteller. But about halfway through season 2, it really takes off, and season 3 and 4 are absolutely amazing. If you are impatient, start with season 2, although episode 50 (the end of season 1) is great for the moment when the main character finally reveals his eyes. Also it's translated from Indonesian by fans so the quality of the translation is very uneven. The story of Flawless is about a teenage boy named Elios and his girlfriend Sarah. They get together at the end of the first season, but that's just the start of the story. Elios has been blind since birth, and has Daredevil-like super powers which he hides, but he doesn't use them for good. One of the main themes is whether Elios is a good person or not. There's a very deep exploration of what having this power/disability does to him as a child and how he relates to other people. Also in the later seasons, we meet several of his classmates who are regular people with vision impairment, and there's a lot of discussion about how their experiences are all different.
Oh and you reminded me that the first long dev thing I wrote was fan fiction of the novel The Raging Quiet. The original is a YA historical novel set in the middle ages about a girl who meets a deaf boy and teaches him sign language. It's very sweet if a bit childish. Like ever other romance, the novel ends with them getting married and going off to a new town to live together, but it felt so unresolved to me. Like, they were clearly going to have a lot of problems together as a couple that would only get worse once they started having kids. So I wrote my own sequel that is about their family life together and how they mature. You can read it here. So I suppose it is possible to write this kind of story. I will have to think about this more.
If you're looking for historical crime fiction with a blind main character, look up the ones with John Fielding, there are at least two fictionalized series about him, and a pretty good TV show called City of Vice. Also another book series called Isaac of Genoa but it's not available as an ebook so I haven't read it.
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Post by erikajulia on Dec 7, 2019 14:19:39 GMT -5
Wow, thank you so much for the kind words about my novel. You totally made my day!😃 I'm so glad you enjoyed it. I've been getting a lot of readers from Germany--thank you ladies! Please do leave a review on Amazon or Goodreads, it really helps me reach more readers. I'm currently working on a different historical novel that is m-m so it will be quite a long time before I get around to a sequel, but I definitely have some ideas already.
....
As for Flawless,
....
Oh and you reminded me that the first long dev thing I wrote was fan fiction of the novel The Raging Quiet. ... You can read it here. So I suppose it is possible to write this kind of story. I will have to think about this more.
If you're looking for historical crime fiction with a blind main character, look up the ones with John Fielding, there are at least two fictionalized series about him, and a pretty good TV show called City of Vice. Also another book series called Isaac of Genoa but it's not available as an ebook so I haven't read it.
You're welcome. It was a fun read, really, I am looking forward for more, even if it means a long wait. :-)
I just looked into Flawless, and I've not jet decided how I like it, first the setting and then the manga-style. I'm not sure if that's for me, still, for now it's easy and a bit funny.
I'll read your fanfiction soon. Thank you for sharing!
The novels about John Fielding from Bruce Alexander are sitting in my bookshelf. They were an interesting read, but as he was a father-figure to the main character, and very little focus was put onto his blindness, they did little to feed my dev-needs. ;-)
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Post by erikajulia on Dec 7, 2019 15:09:40 GMT -5
The problem with the “marriage plot“ as you called it is that you have to have a central conflict in a novel. Novels generally aren’t just about a bunch of things that happen to somebody in the course of their family life. Maybe a memoir might have something like that. *sigh* Well, sorry, I come from the country of Theodor Fontane, Hermann Hesse, Thomas Mann etc. - lots of fabulous books about "a bunch of things that happen to somebody in the course of their family life" ... of course, as I said before, there is nothing in general wrong with romance novels. Then again - why does not someone write a social novel (now, "The Buddenbrooks" was not an easy read*cough*, maybe I should point to the northwest, where the English had Charles Dickens, or to the east, where Russia had Tolstoi) developing around a disabled character (or, more precisely, around a character that happens to be disabled[preferably blind])? Or a developmental novel (that may not be the right term for "Entwicklungsroman") or a biographical novel or a campus novel ... there could be room for romance in each of them, but it would not mean that it had to end at the point of "we met, now let's give it a try".
I know. I read and enjoyed both books about Matt and Anna very much, quite some time ago. Thank you for them! It's just so sad that there are not more books like "Baby crazy". The child will grow, the parents will age... and there is nothing of it that's worth to tell? Romance that happens inside a family is not worth to tell if the couple is married a few years?
Who cares for smooth sailing? That's exactly what I'm saying: To assume that after: "Will you be my girlfriend/wife?" - "Yea!" there will be nothing that could be exciting to tell? That's not reality, that's a fairy-tale-ending. There is nothing wrong with fairy-tales. I love them. But I don't like being limited to only reading them and hardly anything else. Just like (and I really do not want to offend here, absolutely not!) your "Love is blind" - it ends where I think things could become really interesting. To get into a relationship is (if one believes the statistics) not the hardest thing (although your characters had to struggle to reach it). The hardest thing is to make it work. And I would enjoy reading more books like "Baby crazy." That was what I was saying.
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Post by erikajulia on Dec 7, 2019 15:50:30 GMT -5
not a story about smooth sailing. Ah.. well, I think here lies my mistake. I said I wanted something written in a "nice style". That did not refer to "smooth sailing". I meant the style of writing. One of the books I found had a heavy drift toward a christian style that was almost preaching. Well, being a Christian myself I find nothing wrong in sermons, but if I want sermons, I go to church. It's ok - in my opinion - if an author wants to portray characters with a "no sex outside a marriage"-approach. But if it turns out a general pamphlet about how important it is to reach marriage in a virginal status, that's selling a book under false pretense. That's not what I would call a "nice style".
Another book was written so poorly that even I as a second-language-speaker found it dull and unbearable. "Pam nodded. Pam got up. Pam crossed the room. Pam looked at David. Pam said:..." - no sentence longer than six words. Just main-sentences. No variation at all. The disability was portrayed poorly and so on. That was what I was referring to. Sorry if my words are inadequate sometimes.
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Post by erikajulia on Dec 7, 2019 16:20:36 GMT -5
Erika: Glad you enjoyed Baby Crazy! A couple of my other sequels, like My Perfect Fiance, take place after the characters "get together" too. I think romance novels these days have become a bit formulaic, and God forbid you ever stray from the formula, you will be skewered. I got ripped apart in Love is Blind because the hero had sex with another woman early in the book.... tons of very hurtful reviews about that. It's a no-no. Cheating is off the table because you will be lambasted. So that leaves matters that are less dramatic. For example, when I look at my own marriage: well, what is the conflict? Why didn't he do the dishes when he promised he would? Why does he wake me up when he comes to bed at 2am? Why can't I watch television instead of him using the TV to play Zelda? What the hell is he doing in the bathroom for so long and why is it using up so much freaking toilet paper?  Our conflicts are sooooo unromantic, it's ridiculous. Yes, I could write about it, but it wouldn't be a romance. And I would have a lot harder time selling it if I couldn't categorize it as such. I've read books like that, and while they were entertaining, the romance aspect would probably have disappointed you. Dear Annabelle, you had me rolling on the floor with the description of your "marriage problems". No, you're right, that would maybe make a great persiflage of a novel, but nothing more. Then again (uh, and sorry if I stick to "Love is blind" still, but blindness is my main dev trigger, and the potential is obvious): Sophie has kept a huge secret from Colin. When they become a couple, will there be trust-issues? He is an ex-solider. What will he do with his life? Will he go to some training (O&M, daily living skills, something to prepare him for a job)? And how will that affect their life together? Will Sophie perhaps be jealous if there happen to be other women who interact with Colin regularly? How do they deal with people around them who are not tolerant, friendly and understanding? That need not be the big assholes, but how do they cope with the little everyday-frustrations? And if he finds a job (as I suppose she has the job she wants to keep for the rest of her life, happily ever after in the children's library) and the job would mean he had to move - would they find a way to keep their relationship? What if he tried to settle into the content role of the "helpless little cripple" (and I have met some!) - "Darling, go to work and bring home the money, then clean the house, cook my meals, drive me to my appointments, because I can't, I'm blind!"? How would she prevent him from doing so? And if she was successful and helped him become independent - would she fear to lose him? What about children? How do they explain to their child why dad can't help with painting a picture (or can he)? How do they react to the parents of the children who do not want their sons to visit the house with the monster and the blind man? And so on.
Or Noelle and Jeremy (not only were they a fantastic couple, but your style was gorgeous here!) - how do they find new lodgings that cover all their needs? How does Jeremy cope with: "Don't tell me anything, you're not my father!" or with the chaos a boy can manage to create in a house? How many times can he bear to fall because there was a piece of lego in his way? And how would his outburst - and Noelle's reaction - affect their growing together as a family? Will Noelle want him to take over some responsibilities of a father? Do they manage to develop a fulfilling love-life with a growing child full of energy in the house? How do they share household-responsibilities - or do they? And does Noelle want him to take up a more socially involved life? Go to school-performances, watch baseball-games when her son is involved, help with the barbecue afterward...? And... if all the rest would be great (not easy, but in that fantastic style you developed in that book), would it need the romance badly? I confess, I'd love to read more in the style of the grinch and about those three - with or without romance. :-D
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Post by erikajulia on Dec 7, 2019 16:30:22 GMT -5
For example, when I look at my own marriage: well, what is the conflict? Why didn't he do the dishes when he promised he would? Well, when I think about it... there might be a real crisis involved if the blind hero comes home and sets down the bag of milk on the good dishes he promised to wash - and forgot. Will she forgive him that the kitchen will smell like sour milk for weeks to come - and the loss of the precious reminder of her beloved grandmother? (And the conciliation could be really steamy...) :-D
Well, there may be different answers if the hero is a wheelchair-user? Or if it was the other way round (she spending ages in the bathroom) and he was a wheelchair-user and had to rely on punctuality using the bathroom? ;-) After solving the situation, both would already be naked, so the conciliation could be involving lots of skin on skin... *whistles innocently*
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2019 16:33:50 GMT -5
I like drama and encountering problems getting together and once they have finally made it over all the hurdles and are together, yes...it ends and now the reader can take it to where they want it I guess, happily ever after or getting married or divorced, kids or whatever the heart desires I guess. And yes, there are novels and shows about families and they are fun to read or watch. Maybe you could write one erikajulia I also don't like cheesy romance or fairly tale endings. If there is a happy ending it has to be paved with as much drama as possible prior to the happy ending, all the deep feels of pain and love...I want to feel things and in my own writing I have felt so much before that I actually cry myself and have to take a step back. I don't like kids involved in stories, not as a main character or at least not the kids of main characters. I'm actually not sure why that is. I barely like parents of the main characters involved in romance. With kids and parents and parents of parents as characters I only like to read a comedy but definitely not romance. It's kind of interesting why I feel like that, not sure. I don't really like to read romance. I prefer to read and watch stories filled with "murder and mayhem", some highly charged romance with good sex scences. But then again I love "Downton Abbey"....lol My family life growing up was all but normal and so I am quite frankly bored with "happy go lucky" and characters that seem to have it made with good lives and money and all that. I'm not close with my mother and it's a painful relationship. My father passed away when I was 19. I don't speak to my sister. Life was definitely not great and had some traumatic stuff happen from sexual assault I experienced to people's death and everything in between. And the same is true for my husbands family, like literally almost murder and mayhem, illness, drama, poverty, heartbreaking loss, small moments of happiness... I think this influences what I write. I think the way people write originates from how they are wired emotionally and maybe how their own life has been or happens, writing from the heart I guess. Of course also writing of things that are in our dreams and how we would like it to be. I have tried to analyze and observe myself and what I write and I know some of it stems from just the way I am or what I have encountered or things that move me deeply. I like strong sibling bonds in stories, something I have never encountered and something that hurts me a lot irl. I like one parent in a story but really not a mother and not a happy couple of mom and dad. If there is a parent involved, it would be a father, someone I lost too early and think about often and again it hurts. I had no grandparents and am not close to any relatives. And even my own parents relationship and romance developed out of a lot of drama and their marriage was filled with lots of pain and problems from the very start and ended sad. I am also not crazy about girls in general, like daughters or kids so again another weird notion. I feel a lot more connected to the male species. I mean I can write about females (non devs) but then it is just writing the character but not feeling them so much, except for the devs in my stories, I can feel them very much. That goes back to the topic we had about female characters in the stories being devs or not. I don't think I could write a good, deep female character that is not a dev. Maybe that makes me a bad writer, I don't know. But writing is not like acting...when being able to portray a variety of characters realistically makes a great actor but for a writer doesn't it come more from their hearts and what they feel or what is in their heart and head and not so much "acting"...the actor "acts" vulnerable but the writer actually "becomes" vulnerable with letting people get a glimpse into their mind and their heart. I don't know, I may be completely off and I think I also came off topic, sorry... I actually still have a second part planned of my story "No Strings Attached" and some of it is written. That would have been the post get-together story. I may have to pull that out again but I know it needs a lot of work still and even the first story was still one of my early works and probably needs a lot of editing... |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2019 16:40:32 GMT -5
...and one more thing I caught above about age...I have a hard time reading about characters under thirty and even though I don't stray past forty with my own characters, reading about young lovers is difficult. Gosh, I'm heading straight for fifty and so yeah, I need more mature character ages.
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Post by erikajulia on Dec 7, 2019 16:56:05 GMT -5
yes, there are novels and shows about families and they are fun to read or watch. Maybe you could write one erikajulia :-D Dearest Dani, I am a reader! If I was a writer, I certainly would write my own novels - but alas, I'm not. That does not need to stop me dreaming about great books I would like to read, does it? One of the favorite authors of my childhood, Karl May, wrote his most famous books because his fans requested that he write them. :-D |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2019 18:20:42 GMT -5
tc123 How about writing your autobiography 😉
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2019 18:23:15 GMT -5
erikajulia Just start writing about things you like to see in a book/story, I am sure you could write. Anyone can write...I just love to write stuff. It's a hobby and probably therapy 😉 and I do like to read
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Post by devogirl on Dec 7, 2019 22:45:00 GMT -5
I’m so glad this thread is sparking such great discussion! I’m still thinking over all these things. I kind of agree with Annabelle, that a lot of ordinary domestic conflict is boring. Even more, when I think of my own experience with raising kids, it’s crushingly boring. I mean, they’re cute and entertaining because they’re mine but writing about them would make for a super boring novel. I’m really thinking hard how I could portray Tom’s experience of domesticity and fatherhood in a meaningful way.
And yes, the Bruce Alexander books are not particularly devvy but I enjoyed the first one a lot. There are some devvy scenes at least. The tv show City of Vice is devvier. John Fielding is played by hunky Iain Glenn. Although it bothered me that Henry Fielding was played by a very old dude (the actor who played Emperor Palpatine) because in real life he was in his 30s at the time and died relatively young. The tone is also more moralizing that I would like.
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Post by erikajulia on Dec 8, 2019 8:44:47 GMT -5
Erika: part of the reason I haven’t been motivated to do many sequels is because of lack of potential interest. You have to have read the first one to read the sequel, so the best you could hope is 50% or so of the readers of the original. And Love is Blind was not a super bestseller to begin with. so I always end up just starting over… That's ok. As I said before: Maybe there's no market for what I am searching for. I'm not even sure I specifically ask for a sequel. TC123 said it: So maybe if a novel started with the classical romance-plot - but simply went on after the point of "let's be a couple" - then proceeded towards the marriage - and still went on, maybe during a pregnancy, or even up to the marriage of a child... but of course, first of all, you have to have the ideas to write something exciting, and then you have to find the market. You do have a name out there, people who want specific things from you, and I do understand that it might be dangerous to loose your buyers by offering something different. So I'm not asking you specifically to write something. I was just wondering if something like it existed somewhere. As I said, there is a german market for novels about families, often set into a not too far away historical setting. (An example for a successful author: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christine_Br%C3%BCckner ) Those novels just don't focus on someone with disability, as far as I know.It's not autobiographical writing, because often the characters are invented. |
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Our conflicts are sooooo unromantic, it's ridiculous. Yes, I could write about it, but it wouldn't be a romance. And I would have a lot harder time selling it if I couldn't categorize it as such. I've read books like that, and while they were entertaining, the romance aspect would probably have disappointed you.
