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Post by matisse on Feb 22, 2009 13:50:19 GMT -5
You know, my thinking was why not put this charity money and this desire to help into programs that help the disabled to integrate more fully into society in order to create more genuine and lasting relationships. That sounds kind of patronizing too. I'd rather just get laid using the program and figure out the relationship stuff on my own. In the best-case scenario, these therapists can only offer occasional relief. That just distracts from the main issue, which is: why is it that disabled people do not have access to the kind of sexual contact that non-disabled do? There are many reasons for that. Perhaps because the disabled person is not guaranteed intimacy in the majority of homes, which they need if they want to have sex or to masturbate. Also, there are still not enough restaurants, clubs and bars adapted to disabled needs, in which the disabled can enter into social contact that could lead to a sexual relationship. These things must be changed. This means improving conditions for the disabled, so that they can determine for themselves the kind of sex they would like to have. And that can only be achieved with more integration, and not with even more special solutions. Some reasons??!?!!? It's one reason: because we are fucking disabled!!! Sheesh. I know that access sucks in Europe, but even in the places in the US where it's good, there are still the substantial relationship barriers caused by the simple fact of being disabled. Of course access is very important, but this guy makes it should like putting up a bunch of ramps and lowering tables is going to magically make relationships happen.
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Post by stephen on Feb 22, 2009 14:53:48 GMT -5
Able-bodied women can get some form of physical contact any time they want, so I don't think that able-bodied women can understand how it feels to be deprived of physical human contact.
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Post by faith on Feb 22, 2009 15:35:31 GMT -5
stephen- You are absolutely correct. There is no way we could understand how it feels- we can't. Honestly, I don't think I can even accurately imagine what it is like.
I do find this thread to be one of the more honest and eye opening we have had here in a long time. I think the answers reflect a lot about who we are.
From my perspective - which is obviously just my own- I think I would chose no relationship at all rather than one that is not real. My entire life I have had relationships that are not completely fulfilling and now my desire to be authentic is so strong that maybe it taints my response to this. I don't know.
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Post by Claire on Feb 22, 2009 16:06:34 GMT -5
Agreed on relationship stuff Matisse. While we're obviously not going to agree on this regardless, you misunderstood me there. I didn't mean to imply some kind of "relationship help/charity/whatever" (although to be honest, disabled or not, many people need that kind of help...I know I do and have used it) beyond addressing the reasons this happens in the first place so that people can determine their own relationships.
And Stephen...agreed that able-bodied people in general can't understand much of whatever comes along with being disabled. That's a given. However...you've just made a major generalization there which is totally untrue. I know any number of AB women...myself included...who can't just get some form of physical contact any time they want. Try frigid marriages, battered women, immigrants with social integration problems, overweight women, older single women, women with mental illness...I know them all! And most women are different from men...physical contact has to be meaningful and caring and not paid for, making it all that more difficult to obtain. I read that and I thought...if you only knew how many times I've cried myself to sleep exactly because I was starved for loving physical contact. I don't think disabled people have the monopoly on loneliness. Many of us are lonely and isolated for many reasons.
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Post by stephen on Feb 22, 2009 16:54:21 GMT -5
I didn't say that disabled people have a monopoly on loneliness. However, able-bodied people never experience the extreme lack of physical closeness that disabled people feel. I haven't felt the sensation of someone holdng my hand in 12 years. Like I said, I want to be in a committed relationship, and I will wait for the right woman. However, until I find the right woman, I need to have some sort of soft comforting contact with a woman. I sleep alone every night, and sometimes it comes to a point where I start feel a ''thing'' instead of a person.
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Post by Triassic on Feb 22, 2009 17:04:48 GMT -5
yes, claire is ABSOLUTELY correct here. in fact, i have long had a sneaking suspicion that millions upon millons of americans who desire sex and intimacy-and incidentally are AB-cannot get it by any means; at least not good sex, or what they really want.
if you consider how sex and sex-gossip obsessed america is, you start to wonder; so much tv movies, internet, news, tabloids, etc, its all about who's fucking who. and where, when and how. WHY? what kind of little freako is always curious about sex gossip or porn? someone who's NOT GETTING ANY, that's who...i've read statistics which show that 15% of the population has FIFTY PERCENT of the sex, another 50% has the other half. in other words, half the pop. is getting an o.k. amount of sex, a smallish cohort is getting TONS of action...and 35% must get little or none at all.
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Post by matisse on Feb 22, 2009 17:42:03 GMT -5
cannot get it by any means; at least not good sex, or what they really want. There's kind of a big difference between those three categories you list. I don't think they can really be lumped together. The examples Claire lists would be a lot more likely to fall into the second two categories, while wheelers would be more likely to land into the first category.
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Post by matisse on Feb 22, 2009 17:49:58 GMT -5
i've read statistics which show that 15% of the population has FIFTY PERCENT of the sex, another 50% has the other half. in other words, half the pop. is getting an o.k. amount of sex, a smallish cohort is getting TONS of action...and 35% must get little or none at all. I think these statistics are difficult to read because they are skewed by people in relationships. Even single people who are very promiscuous are probably not going to come close to getting the amount of sex that couples in a relationship may have. A single guy who is getting laid once a month seems like it would fall under the 35% "little" portion, but he's actually doing quite well if you ask me. But a married guy could easily be 4x that by just doing the perfunctory weekly sex.
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Post by Pony on Feb 22, 2009 18:45:37 GMT -5
Nothing like the sex subject to get the discussion juices flowing, huh? (uh, really bad pun) 1st, I believe prostitution should be legal, so I'm not saying sex should only be for those lucky ones who find the perfect partner that offers up all the things that make it more than dog pumping another dog. However, I think a STATE FUNDED program to train people for giving the disabled sex is just ridiculous, and patronizing. (Hey, this MIGHT be a good program to put in Obama's economic stimulus package...u know, create jobs n stuff)
Look, in my days, I've had some shallow sexual relations with girls in strip bars before AND after disability. And there's always masturbation to great lesbian porn, which I prefer (haha), for those that can. Actually, I'm like Stephan, no physical pleasure from chest down, but I'm an extremely sexual person, so I've generated my energy in other pleasures...it's mostly mental sexual pleasure, which is fine with me, but finding the right partner is the key. Hell, that's the key for EVERYONE...I sqaid it before, plenty of ABs are frustrated sexually - EVEN MARRIED ONES!! Maybe married ones MORE. I've known quite a few frustrated females, or ones that just gave up.
Why should disabled be entitled to free sex paid for the state when the geeky overweight gamer that has little chance with a chick get nothing? Actually, i've had better, and more, erotic sexual partners post injury than many AB dudes, NOT ALL, but I'd say more than 50%. And then there's the 'quality' issue, ahhhhhhh....a Rabbit can fuck, but is that quality sex???
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Post by stephen on Feb 22, 2009 19:33:17 GMT -5
I think ya'll are getting to focused on the sex part of this discussion. I think that alot of disabled people would just like some physical contact...a shoulder massage, or maybe just wanting a woman to lay beside them and cuddle up for a while.
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Post by BA on Feb 22, 2009 19:46:33 GMT -5
I think ya'll are getting to focused on the sex part of this discussion. I think that alot of disabled people would just like some physical contact...a shoulder massage, or maybe just wanting a woman to lay beside them and cuddle up for a while. I think I hear you very well, Stephen. Very well. I think you might be suprised at how many peopple are lacking warm, human contact. It's sad, and I think it's possibly a more important thing than sex.
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Post by genuinejoe76 on Feb 22, 2009 19:49:57 GMT -5
I simply can't think of anything less attractive than getting involved with someone who was that desperate! Let me get this straight... you're a Dev, but you don't want to get involved with someone who is desperate for sex? I'm just guessing, but you may be hard-pressed to find a wheeler who is not desperate. Those wheelers who say they are not desperate are either gettin' some on a regular basis or are lying. Also, you have any no idea what being desperate is. To truly find out, you have to have a feeling in your entire body, have no prospects for sexual encounters, and be physically unable to pleasure yourself. To say that you would reject someone because they are desperate is a bit offensive because you do not know what it's like to live in their shoes.
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Post by Pony on Feb 22, 2009 20:03:35 GMT -5
Wow, i'm amazed, Stephan....REALLY? You would just settle for that human contact? Oh no, if there's a goodlookin girl laying beside me, stroking my hair, kissing me seductively (hopefully)....I'm definitely going to want to lick her breasts, rub her pussy and more!! Maybe I'm just different, but I couldn't care less about a massage or warm body beside me. I WANT MEANINGFUL, SINCERE, EROTIC, ROMANTIC, PASSION, INSPIRED SEX. But do you guys REALLY think the state should train girls and fund this? ??
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Post by Claire on Feb 22, 2009 20:07:46 GMT -5
I agree Stephen but somehow I see that as VERY different. I'd even agree with AB that it's MORE important. Giving a friend a massage, a hug, a cuddle, that's one thing. Charity sex donated by some philantropic organization, nope. Totally different things there.
Joe, I'm sorry you're offended and I'm quite sure that there's a lot that I have no idea about. Really, quite regularly I come face to face with my own cluelessness. It doesn't even surprise me anymore. But I don't see this as somehow being related to whether I know what it's like to be disabled. Here, regardless of how cold-hearted I'm going to appear, I stand by my statement. Being desperate is one thing...but I think that this program is pathetic and that particular level of desperation...nope, that's not for me.
It's like...I expect a guy to have more self-respect than that. Someone like Tony, for example, or Andy, or Jason, or the para I go to school with, or the five different quads that I hang out with at the mall, who all have girlfriends or wives. They have been able to form attachments without being charity cases.
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Post by E on Feb 22, 2009 21:56:48 GMT -5
Let me get this straight... you're a Dev, but you don't want to get involved with someone who is desperate for sex? I'm just guessing, but you may be hard-pressed to find a wheeler who is not desperate. Those wheelers who say they are not desperate are either gettin' some on a regular basis or are lying. I'm a wheeler. I'm certainly not desperate. I don't think the chicks I hang out with would enjoy my company if I was. Also, you have any no idea what being desperate is. To truly find out, you have to have a feeling in your entire body, have no prospects for sexual encounters, and be physically unable to pleasure yourself. To say that you would reject someone because they are desperate is a bit offensive because you do not know what it's like to live in their shoes. You can reject someone for any reason you choose. It's not offensive. It's reality. If Claire couldn't shag a desperate guy, that's up to her, regardless of her understanding of desperation. (And, by the way, I have a feeling that Claire knows a lot more about being desperate than you might realize.) I have no idea what it's like to be morbidly obese, but I can tell you I may reject someone because they are. Likewise, I have no idea what it's like to be really, really stupid, but again, I have rejected some morons in my day. Wheelers who act desperate and pathetic make the rest of us look bad. In fact, they make us look so bad, so pathetic, so infantile, that governments are prompted to create programs so that we might get laid. How much does a program like that turn women AWAY from seeing gimps as viable partners? Seriously.
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