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Post by roger888 on Jul 28, 2009 1:31:08 GMT -5
Claire, I will be your friend and i will not think less of because you are a dev and will not tell a sole... There's something very fishy about that promise  |
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Phil
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Post by Phil on Jul 29, 2009 11:28:31 GMT -5
Claire, I will be your friend and i will not think less of because you are a dev and will not tell a sole... There's something very fishy about that promise Now THAT was funny! ;D |
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Post by Ouch on Jul 29, 2009 15:12:39 GMT -5
I am scared of wheelers. It's not a question of fearing being in a relationship with them because that's not possible for me, I'm not going there. For me it's fear of talking to them or becoming friends, because I'm afraid it is obvious. Fear of being hated for who/what I am. Fear of discovery, of them telling others. You're afraid of me? I don't hate you... ...and I'd have to say nearly anything is possible... |
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Post by mike on Jul 29, 2009 16:06:54 GMT -5
Claire,
Understand your trepidation, but liken it to a 13 year old who has a deep crush on someone but fails to persue it for the same reasons; we fear rejection & ridicule. Eventually we learn to accept it as within the limits of normal human behavior and learn only immature jerks would tease you about such a thing.
Social scorn is useful when it discourages aberant behavior, but aberant behavior is like robbing banks & beating people. Being attracted to another is not aberant, no matter what the attractor might be.
Consider the following: If you were attracted to something like a particular physical attribute, social rules get inconsistant even within their narrow boundaries. If you said someone's height was what attracted you, and that person was unusually tall, you're OK, but if the person was abnormally short you violate the rule. Likewise, if a woman was attractive to you because of her breast size, that would be OK if her boobs were unusually large, but if they were unusually small - well you get the point. The logical extension here is someones physical capability; if you like someone because they are exceptionally athletic - OK, but if they are not, then you violate the unspoken taboo.
For most of us, we outgrow these unspoken taboo's but the difficult part is that because the attractor is outside the mainstream, we project our fears onto others and we don't explore our feelings, the anxiety grows and the issue becomes unreasonably magnified.
As a dis rather than a dev, it is easy for me to be dispassionate about the issue, but really wish people weren't so reticent about revealing something like this about themselves.
Worrying about how others will react to what attracts us is pointless, its our behavior that counts. Liking someone because of ANY attribute is OK, but stalking or other threatening or intimidating BEHAVIOR is taboo for good reason.
If you got up in front a group of people and said something polarizing such as 'RIGHT', the 'RIGHT' oriented people would be OK with you, but the 'LEFT' people would have a problem, and if you stated 'LEFT' the reverse would be true vis-a-vis the people you were OK with. If you take no position for fear of alienating others, then you are not really OK with anyone, people are simply ambivalent. Conversly, if you take a position, and state your orientation, the people who feel OK with you are naturally the ones you would be interested in anyway.
In a perfect world people would be able to express their desires without fear of recrimination, but unfortunately the world isn't perfect yet, so we struggle with issues such as this.
It would be interesting to know how the disabled people feel about this, I for one would be really flattered if a female indicated that they felt my braces & gait were sexy, but also understand the social rules make this quite unlikely.
Mike
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Post by BA on Jul 29, 2009 16:18:01 GMT -5
Claire, Understand your trepidation, but liken it to a 13 year old who has a deep crush on someone but fails to persue it for the same reasons; we fear rejection & ridicule. Eventually we learn to accept it as within the limits of normal human behavior and learn only immature jerks would tease you about such a thing. Social scorn is useful when it discourages aberant behavior, but aberant behavior is like robbing banks & beating people. Being attracted to another is not aberant, no matter what the attractor might be. Mike Speechless sometimes at the way these threads unfold. We go from sole to soul. ;D |
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Phil
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Post by Phil on Jul 29, 2009 18:32:20 GMT -5
Claire, Understand your trepidation, but liken it to a 13 year old who has a deep crush on someone but fails to persue it for the same reasons; we fear rejection & ridicule. Eventually we learn to accept it as within the limits of normal human behavior and learn only immature jerks would tease you about such a thing. Social scorn is useful when it discourages aberant behavior, but aberant behavior is like robbing banks & beating people. Being attracted to another is not aberant, no matter what the attractor might be. Mike Speechless sometimes at the way these threads unfold. We go from sole to soul. ;D If we had a member from Seoul, S. Korea posting... we'd hit the trifecta with this thread. ;D |
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Post by roger888 on Jul 30, 2009 1:14:52 GMT -5
A link to youtube & some soul music to accompany the thread would be appropriate too.
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Post by A££Y "Cuddles" Magoo on Jul 30, 2009 2:30:01 GMT -5
I am scared of wheelers. It's not a question of fearing being in a relationship with them because that's not possible for me, I'm not going there. For me it's fear of talking to them or becoming friends, because I'm afraid it is obvious. Fear of being hated for who/what I am. Fear of discovery, of them telling others. Have u befriended alot of wheelers that have rejected u later on because of the fact that your a devo???That still flabbergasts me cause to me devo means attraction, it means for once in my life my disability means something other then a liability. IMO if somebody can't accept u for who u are then they're just not worth it. |
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Post by Claire on Jul 30, 2009 12:56:10 GMT -5
You're afraid of me? I don't hate you... ...and I'd have to say nearly anything is possible... No, of course I'm not afraid of YOU.  But, say we were to actually meet, and I was wheeling (which I probably would be), then I might actually be afraid. But that is not so much about dev stuff as other stuff. |
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Post by Claire on Jul 30, 2009 13:34:20 GMT -5
Mike, thank you, that makes a lot of sense. It's more than just devness with me however. When I see a wheeler, there are a few things going on with me. One is devotee attraction, which is hard enough. The other is that I'm a pretender and there's a lot of fear and guilt associated with that as well. I'm afraid that I tend to confuse these two issues so that the sight of a hot wheeler brings up a whole bunch of confusing emotions.
assman316, I've never befriended a wheeler who later rejected me later on because of my devness because there's only one wheeler friend in real life who I've ever revealed this to. THAT was hard and we still have issues with it, actually, because she's had issues with creepy male devos and it's hard not to put us all in the same category. That's part of my fear of revealing my devness...what others have done to blacken our name and being judged on that basis and word "getting around".
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Post by mike on Jul 30, 2009 15:59:45 GMT -5
Claire,
Consider what I said earlier regarding aberant behavior:
1. Aberant behavior is behavior that hurts others - simple enough, obviously your pretending cannot possibly 'hurt' others.
2. Aberant behavior can also be behavior that offends others, and this becomes complicated because lots of things can offend others, even normal things, assuming the offended person has problems. But the tricky part is deciding what is reasonable to constitute offensive behavior. Deliberatly insulting others for no good reason is generally considered offensive, but belonging to some group, say black or hispanic is certainly NOT offensive behavior, even though some bigots would consider it that way. Do you really think your pretending is considered offensive by reasonable people? I don't, who is hurt? You are not mocking others, you may be emulating them but there is a big difference. If a female wears male clothing, nobody notices or cares, but if the reverse is true, lots of people take offence; is this reasonable? I don't think so, but of course the male dressed in feminine attire is not seeking to offend others, so in my opinion the offended in this case is unreasonable. Small consolation for someone in that situation who is called out for ridicule however.
3. My guess is that you are more afraid of offending others and/or being called out for ridicule or censure than is reasonable. Is this because that would be a normal response for others, or something you project upon them based upon your internal fears? The best way of making that determination would probably be some experimentation, though I have no idea how you could go about that.
Claire, another parallel to consider is the experience of the newly disabled, wherein it would be reasonable to anticipate a negative reaction from friends & family. A reasonable fear that is usually dissipated when the events actually unfold, and the newly disabled discovers that friends & family still love & approve of them. An interesting contrast here is the reaction to the type of new situation; if a returning soldier was physically disabled, s/he could expect compassion & a modicum of understanding, but if the new situation is mental, such as PTSD, the reaction can be quite negative. Is this based upon fear or predjudice? It is considered quite offensive to ridicule others because of a physical limitation, but OK to ridicule them if they are consided stupid - unless they are retarded, at which point it is no longer OK to ridicule them.
My point here is that there are a lot of unspoken social rules, some reasonable, others not so much. One time I got onto an elevator and continued facing the back of the elevator, knowing the back was going to open when it arrived on my floor. The other people on the elevator were somewhat uneasy, as you are supposed to turn around and look at the numbers. Was I acting in an unacceptable manner, or did my perfectly normal behavior break an unwritten social rule? To worry about breaking reasonable social rules is valid, to worry about breaking unreasonable social rules borders on paranoia.
Kinda like that old adage: It's not paranoia if they are really after you. Are they?
Regards,
Mike
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Post by Ray T on Jul 31, 2009 1:02:17 GMT -5
You're afraid of me? I don't hate you... ...and I'd have to say nearly anything is possible... No, of course I'm not afraid of YOU. But, say we were to actually meet, and I was wheeling (which I probably would be), then I might actually be afraid. But that is not so much about dev stuff as other stuff. Claire, We have talked off board b4 and i think you are a really cool person and I do not think it is so strange the things you like...It would not bother me one bit to have you wheel with me. to me i think it would be a boon. Having someone along that knew where i am comming from and could stand in case we really needed the help... I just wished you were closer to Texas.. I would go out and wheel with you and teach you everything I know... |
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Post by Ouch on Jul 31, 2009 1:34:08 GMT -5
You're afraid of me? I don't hate you... ...and I'd have to say nearly anything is possible... No, of course I'm not afraid of YOU. But, say we were to actually meet, and I was wheeling (which I probably would be), then I might actually be afraid. But that is not so much about dev stuff as other stuff. I think mike summed it up well, in his latest post - "There's nothing to fear, but fear itself." I might add, I'm not trying to criticize, but be supportive - I know how it is must be much, much, easier said than done. |
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Post by Claire on Aug 2, 2009 14:46:48 GMT -5
My guess is that you are more afraid of offending others and/or being called out for ridicule or censure than is reasonable. Is this because that would be a normal response for others, or something you project upon them based upon your internal fears? WHOA.  That struck a chord, I had to chew on that for a while. Yes, I am of course unreasonably afraid of these things. But on the other hand, I've experienced (online, never IRL because no one ever knew) some pretty intense hatred for being a devotee and/or pretender...both directed at me personally and directed at all of us in general. I would never hurt anyone but devotees have hurt people, and I don't consider that I hurt any other wheelers by pretending but some people believe that pretenders cause active harm (an example: using wheelchair bathroom stall). The reasons are complex and of course if all you know is that Claire loves to wheel around in a wheelchair and pretend she's disabled, then of course anyone, disabled or not, is going to have a strong negative reaction to that. You need to get to know me and learn more about BIID for it to make any sense at all...assuming you're interested enough to find out more. So I guess what I'm getting that is that for me, regarding both devoteeism and pretending, a person with a disability is "guilty until proven innocent" with regards to their tolerance/acceptance/understanding. Claire, another parallel to consider is the experience of the newly disabled, wherein it would be reasonable to anticipate a negative reaction from friends & family. A reasonable fear that is usually dissipated when the events actually unfold, and the newly disabled discovers that friends & family still love & approve of them. I can't tell you the angst I've gone through over people seeing me for the first time in my chair, and somehow it always turns out to be no big deal. In the end, nobody really cares. They ask a few questions, it's over, we move on. It's not the same thing as what you're describing, but I can relate to that somewhat in my own way. An interesting contrast here is the reaction to the type of new situation; if a returning soldier was physically disabled, s/he could expect compassion & a modicum of understanding, but if the new situation is mental, such as PTSD, the reaction can be quite negative. Is this based upon fear or predjudice? It is considered quite offensive to ridicule others because of a physical limitation, but OK to ridicule them if they are consided stupid - unless they are retarded, at which point it is no longer OK to ridicule them. Exactly. Just GET OVER IT ALREADY, right? PTSD, depression, bi-polar, whatever. That is EXACTLY why I don't come out and tell everyone I have BIID. A mental thing is so open to scorn and ridicule. A "neurological disorder" isn't (unless it's in your brain and causes you to act weird, but we don't have to mention that it's in your brain, let them assume it's in your legs). Kinda like that old adage: It's not paranoia if they are really after you. Are they? It's not because you're paranoid that they're not really after you. |
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Post by Claire on Aug 2, 2009 14:47:52 GMT -5
I would go out and wheel with you and teach you everything I know... Dang!!! I would love to take you up on that. |
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But, say we were to actually meet, and I was wheeling (which I probably would be), then I might actually be afraid. But that is not so much about dev stuff as other stuff. 
That struck a chord, I had to chew on that for a while. Yes, I am of course unreasonably afraid of these things. But on the other hand, I've experienced (online, never IRL because no one ever knew) some pretty intense hatred for being a devotee and/or pretender...both directed at me personally and directed at all of us in general. I would never hurt anyone but devotees have hurt people, and I don't consider that I hurt any other wheelers by pretending but some people believe that pretenders cause active harm (an example: using wheelchair bathroom stall). The reasons are complex and of course if all you know is that Claire loves to wheel around in a wheelchair and pretend she's disabled, then of course anyone, disabled or not, is going to have a strong negative reaction to that. You need to get to know me and learn more about BIID for it to make any sense at all...assuming you're interested enough to find out more. So I guess what I'm getting that is that for me, regarding both devoteeism and pretending, a person with a disability is "guilty until proven innocent" with regards to their tolerance/acceptance/understanding.