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Post by Enid on Apr 13, 2013 11:02:58 GMT -5
I have no doubt it is extremely difficult for you to have a mum like that on whom you are financially dependent and to whom you have to play ‘the good daughter’ but those things are perfect examples of how difficult it is to let go of those subtle norms that we all live under. Norms that implicitly carries a lot of prejudice towards minorities. She's not that bad... And I don't play "good daughter", lol. I've had a disabled guy live with me while she paid the bills (she owns the place). She didn't want her family to know I was dating girls because they're pretty homophobic and was trying to avoid a fight, but I'm sure that if I ended up with a woman she'd come around. In the same vein, I haven't told her about the current wheeler yet because we're not in a relationship, and I don't say much about my dating life. I'm not sure she's even asked his name. I'll tell them eventually if it works out. The point of the story only was that we do have legit reasons to be scared. Obviously life would be much better if nobody gave a damn... but it doesn't work that way.
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Post by Valkyrja on Apr 13, 2013 11:48:24 GMT -5
In my case, I only "omite" the attraction part. I´ve had friends with disabilities (though I was never attracted by them... some of them were guys, others were girls). I have never had problems to be seen with my friends. What my circle of irl friends (straights, gays or disabled) dont know is about me being a dev. That's my "Secrecy", the attraction part. My kismet was to fell for an AB guy, so for me there is no point to "come out of the closet" about my devness. But believe me that if I would have found love in other person, and that person would happen to be a guy with a disability... I would have fought like I did for my AB couple. But that is my pov and my experience.
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Post by janewheeler on Apr 13, 2013 18:56:42 GMT -5
For me, I think I'm scared BECAUSE I have had a lot of disabled people around me. As I've mentioned before, I have (had) a disabled family member, and my family has worked in both respite care and disability advocacy for my whole life.
I feel ashamed of liking something that makes life more difficult for someone else. I would never get in the way of what someone would need (like moving a chair so I could see someone crawl to get to it, etc.). The whole thing just feels like cognitive dissonance to me: trying to advocate for things to be less difficult while at the same time having a little frisson if I see the infamous "struggle".
But I think a lot of that has to do with my incredibly fucked-up parents. Nothing is sacred or private to them; they've never understood the most basic facts of what is meaningful to me. My mom has actually gone out of her way to make fun of me in front of people who don't even know me. She'll pop up in conversation with little tidbits about things I did 20 years ago, and I cringe. I can't share anything.
The second aspect of that is that even though we were friends with a lot of PWD, there was always a ton of "othering." I'm convinced that my mom signed up for respite care because she wanted to take care of people who didn't talk back to her like I did, hence the parade of people with autism and nonverbal CP that came through our house while I got ignored. The disabled family member was her brother, who had mental retardation but was pretty high functioning, yet she constantly referred to him as "our precious [NAME]" and "punkin" when he was a grown man. A grown man who colored and loved The Sound of Music (just like me!), but still.
And then there's the endless bullying I got for simply being myself when I was growing up: nerdy, too smart for my own good, not wearing cool clothes, all that. Which I new recognize included bullying from my own family. I would do anything to keep myself safe from ridicule, regardless of whether the thing in question deserved ridicule or not, but it didn't help. Still doesn't.
Sigh. That's all, folks.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2013 23:11:35 GMT -5
I am not ashamed of my devness but I also won't put it out there just like I won't put other interests out there that I have, my friends don't know the real me...it is pretty sad I guess.... I have always been very shy and I still am in reality. Only on the Internet I can somewhat be myself at certain sites. I get real anxiety with some things like speaking in front of people, hence why I don't join the chat here that sometimes happens. My shyness is a problem sometimes keeping me from making new friends. Also concerning my mother, she does not know much about me at all, so me being a dev will never ever come up, we do live very far apart and she is elderly, I won't bother her with any of my "issues", just the same with my sister who I don't see eye to eye with anyways...the only person I somewhat opened up to is my husband and it will most likely stay that way. Writing all those things makes me feel like I am really screwed up....:-) As for admitting to having disabled friends, I don't have any in real life...the only disabled folks I know are here and live far and wide spread where friendship does not just happen and once the guys realize I am not going in for a relationship they don't want anything to do with me anyways. I am a dev and I wish I would have more disabled friends, I would not have a problem with that at all. I raise my children very open minded towards sexuality and people who are different, that is all I can do to pave their way to know what they need and want earlier in life, not like me who just found out about all of these things like 4 years ago. Anyhow, I am not sure if this all makes sense and is actually topic related but I am frustrated too sometimes....
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Post by alf on Apr 14, 2013 8:02:42 GMT -5
First of all I want to thank the girls who have contributed to this thread by trying to share their secrets and their thoughts about them. I can see that it is difficult for those of you who think you are exposing your sexuality by having disabled men as friends, but I will still say that it is only in your head that exposure is going on. But enough about that… What is at stake for me here is the fact that so many of you subscribe to what is known as the ‘disability as tragedy’ view. A prime example of this view is what Janewheeler wrote (JW I have no intention of picking on you per se, this runs way, way deeper) I feel ashamed of liking something that makes life more difficult for someone else. Makes life more difficult than what? Have you ever entertained the thought that this thing ‘that makes life difficult for someone else’ could make life for that person richer and more fulfilling? The ‘disability as tragedy’ view is prevalent in most of the stuff I read here, both in the threads and in the oh-so-tragic stories that many of you swallow with glee. You pity the disabled men you know while you feel guilty for being attracted to them. They are like broken objects to be felt sorry for, out of reach of your desire to repair them. They are seen in the light of all the things they cannot do and therefore they are also in need of your love and affection. We, the disabled guys, are seen as people who spend our miserable lives longing for the things that we cannot do. And our only redemption is to find that dev who can save not only the day but our entire lives and we can live happily ever after. Does that story sound familiar? It’s not that anybody here has anything against disabled people – I am absolutely certain nobody does. It’s the fact that disability itself is seen as something bad, something that needs to be dealt with, changed or made more bearable. And that is why it is ableism. It is like Animal Farm; ‘able bodied is good, disabled is bad’ so we have to make it good again, by embracing it and comforting it to make it better with our love and affection and all our good intentions. Eta: I realized I might be misunderstood here. Yes, I am saying disability is not a tagedy but what I am not saying is that disability is blessing or any other sort of thing that could be viewed as the opposite of tragedy. What I am saying is that disability is. Just like everything else in life is. It is something that some people have to deal with. Most people have to work to make a living, for some people it sucks to get up in the morning to work, others jump right out of bed and are happy to get out of the house. It's the same with disability, not two people view it the same way. But by far the fewest see it as a personal tragedy, the way it is portrayed in popular culture - as well as by society at large.
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Post by annabelle on Apr 14, 2013 8:38:05 GMT -5
You pity the disabled men you know while you feel guilty for being attracted to them. They are like broken objects to be felt sorry for, out of reach of your desire to repair them. They are seen in the light of all the things they cannot do and therefore they are also in need of your love and affection. Oh my gosh, you don't really think we feel that way, do you??? In my book, The Boy Next Door, I got a lot of negative and positive feedback. But overall, the reviewers (mainly non-devs) found the wheeler to be written as incredibly sexy and never an object of pity. A lot of women were surprised that a disabled character could be written as being so appealing. There are men out there that I pity. Someone with a terminal diagnosis, for example. I don't find that at all attractive.
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Post by BA on Apr 14, 2013 9:02:10 GMT -5
Alf, this has gotten me thinking. Damn if we women in society have a whole slew of "broken man as romantic hero" scenarios. I'm thinking about broader 'savior' tendencies which include romantic notions about brooding, moody, self-self-destructive, unobtainable types (Heathcliff anyone?). With love, we turn their lives around.
Why? Is the question.
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Post by Enid on Apr 14, 2013 9:02:53 GMT -5
You raise a good point, Alf.
On the other hand, I would say that sometimes that "disability as a tragedy" view is what we're getting from the wheelers we're involved with. Sometimes it's obvious right away (newly injured guys, for example), but sometimes it only comes up after some digging... there's a lot of good actors out there.
It's a balancing act, because even if you think things are (or will be) fine, you have to be sympathetic to pain that is obviously there.
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Post by lisa on Apr 14, 2013 9:14:05 GMT -5
Wow, been offline for two days and then spending hours to read through everything that happened during this time. Most of my thoughts were already mentioned, but through writing this post maybe I can get my opinion clear in my own head . So, I do know the problem. I do. And I think I've gone all the way. From not telling a single person to telling some, to actually dating a wheeler, to trying to figure out whether and how to tell my friends (and which) about him. And I still do. If he would accuse me of being embarrassed of dating him, I couldn't disagree. Though I am not at all embarrassed. Actually this is my first relationship (and there were some of them with AB men before) in which I walk through the streets with him and think that I am proud to be his girlfriend. I really am. I know it's not the case, but sometimes I wonder why he doesn't get hit all the time. So I love showing him as my boyfriend at the streets. Except that these aren't the streets of the town where I usually live. I told some friends that I am dating a guy in a wheelchair (their reaction ranged from okayish to super comfortable). I told my parents that I do and where we met (their reaction was bad). But I mostly did because it was the only possible thing to do in the situation. And I am scared to hell of what happens when more people find out, especially people who don't belong to my closest friends. I experienced heavy bullying until I got 18 and finished school. Although that didn't continue during the years that followed, I am very afraid it could start again when people start wondering why I am dating someone severely disabled. In an LDR. From the internet. While there are offers of good-looking AB men in my city. (And I kind of get input to think like that). At least having a wheeler in my immediate emotional surrounding is a reason for me to have wheelers on my fb friends list too. Now it is. I guess I wouldn't have allowed more than a few there either some months ago. So I totally get what the wheelers here are saying. And there are times when I feel really bad for treating my bf like that and hiding him from a couple of friends or family. I do want to live this stuff freely. But I got told that this can be a life where I would feel lonelier than I do now. I guess I will get around that one day. But it takes time for me to be emotionally prepared for it.
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Post by Green on Apr 14, 2013 9:40:10 GMT -5
I told some friends that I am dating a guy in a wheelchair (their reaction ranged from okayish to super comfortable). I am doubtful that people your age (assuming you're in your 20s or so) would really care much if the guy is in a wheelchair. Especially if you only mention being friends. I can understand about being uncertain about telling people who you're dating, but that would be true of anyone you date I'd bet. What do you mean by okayish?
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Post by Enid on Apr 14, 2013 9:56:15 GMT -5
I told some friends that I am dating a guy in a wheelchair (their reaction ranged from okayish to super comfortable). I am doubtful that people your age (assuming you're in your 20s or so) would really care much if the guy is in a wheelchair. Especially if you only mention being friends. I can understand about being uncertain about telling people who you're dating, but that would be true of anyone you date I'd bet. What do you mean by okayish? I can't speak for Lisa, but a while back a friend of mine (who isn't a dev) was dating a guy who was missing one leg... and in the interest of science we told as many people as possible to see what their reactions were. Trust me, people care. There were many freak outs by 20-year-olds.
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Post by lisa on Apr 14, 2013 10:10:10 GMT -5
I am doubtful that people your age (assuming you're in your 20s or so) would really care much if the guy is in a wheelchair. Especially if you only mention being friends. I can understand about being uncertain about telling people who you're dating, but that would be true of anyone you date I'd bet. What do you mean by okayish? Well, as far as I (and seems Enid too) experienced it, some do care. One of my friends told me he can understand that my parents ask themselves what they've done wrong. I guess most people don't say anything but assume that the relationship won't last long (that's what somebody said). "Okayish" was meant to be that there weren't any very bad comments, but they aren't encouraging or something either. More like "Yeah, do what you want, but it is strange."
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Post by Emma on Apr 14, 2013 12:10:35 GMT -5
What is at stake for me here is the fact that so many of you subscribe to what is known as the ‘disability as tragedy’ view. A prime example of this view is what Janewheeler wrote (JW I have no intention of picking on you per se, this runs way, way deeper) I feel ashamed of liking something that makes life more difficult for someone else. Makes life more difficult than what? Have you ever entertained the thought that this thing ‘that makes life difficult for someone else’ could make life for that person richer and more fulfilling? The ‘disability as tragedy’ view is prevalent in most of the stuff I read here, both in the threads and in the oh-so-tragic stories that many of you swallow with glee. You pity the disabled men you know while you feel guilty for being attracted to them. They are like broken objects to be felt sorry for, out of reach of your desire to repair them. They are seen in the light of all the things they cannot do and therefore they are also in need of your love and affection. It's true that many devs feel guilty for their attraction but I disagree that those devs also pity disabled guys. To be honest though, I have never completely understood the guilt other devs have. If you have read any of my past posts about guilt, you will know that I never felt that way about my attraction. I know I am not the only one who feels this way and am glad you clarified that not all devs feel guilt. What stories specifically are you talking about when you refer to the oh-so-tragic ones we swallow with glee? We, the disabled guys, are seen as people who spend our miserable lives longing for the things that we cannot do. And our only redemption is to find that dev who can save not only the day but our entire lives and we can live happily ever after. I have never gotten this from the devs here but many guys who post intros in the personals section imply things similar to what you said above. I know these are also the guys who don't usually stick around because they didn't find their beautiful dream dev after being here a week but yeah, I think that view comes from the guys not the devs. What I am saying is that disability is. Just like everything else in life is. It is something that some people have to deal with. I love this. It explains perfectly how disability should be seen by everyone. Ironically I think the guys who view their disability this way are the most successful with dating, dev or non-dev.
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Post by RyooT on Apr 14, 2013 13:43:12 GMT -5
What is at stake for me here is the fact that so many of you subscribe to what is known as the ‘disability as tragedy’ view. I have read this thread with interest so far, but hadn't found anything that spoke to me directly to make me want to share my own point of view until Alf posted his last response. The point Alf's making is an excellent one, but I think the explanation needs to reach a bit deeper still. I believe the 'disability as tragedy' view as Alf calls it, is the pervasive social norm that is being taught, but I have noticed a subtle shift, particularly over the last few months. Almost like an emancipation of disabled people of sorts, to publicly state that they are tired of being abused for 'inspiration porn'. Or maybe it is just me coming late to the party while it's been going on for a long time already. But this is something that really got me thinking. First of all, if anyone happens to become disabled, I believe, they tend to see themselves as tragic figures and project this newly acquired self-image. And they do that exactly for the same reasons other people see them as tragic. They were socialized into it this perception up-front. Some never appear from it out of their own, some emerge and then have to fight very hard against the public perception of the tragic figure they aught to be. And some never fall into the tragedy trap at all. They carry on with life as best as they can and say f/u to the world that wants to stuff them into the little tragedy box. The last category is also the one that says f/y, I am not your inspiration. As Alf points out 'overcoming' is inspiring only because the thing that was overcome is perceived as a hardship in the first place. I have come to the conclusion that many people need this kind of literature to see what is possible because they are trapped in their own misery. But rather than doing something with the inspiration, instead of using it as the literary kick in the butt they need, they are complacent and become addicted to the inspirational stories because for a short moment it gives them the dream of changing their own lives and it makes them feel good. But the glow soon fades and instead of having taken a step to getting their own life in order they become addicted to the feel good moments. I know my own perception has shifted over time and I now react really allergic to the kind of 'oh-so-tragic' stories as Alf aptly calls them - particularly those of the religious kind. In those the often not so subtle undertone is still that disability is a sort of punishment for some kind of failure or disobedience and that faith is the fix for anything. IMO nothing could be further from the truth. With the same tarnish brush, sexuality has been vilified by religion. I have had the good fortune to escape nearly all childhood religious indoctrination and therefore, I have noticed, I have never had a strong association of guilt with being a dev or with my own sexuality. I may have been naive in terms of both in the past and previously been guided more by public opinion than I would like to have been, knowing what I know now, but I can understand how for many women the aspect of guilt/shame is heavily ingrained in their psyche on both aspects. That may work as a multiplier of sorts - letting many jump to the conclusion that having a sexual reaction (which is supposedly wrong on its own) to something that is equally treated with disdain, is the worst kind of abomination. But it's not just the devs who jump to that conclusion. It's the non-dev women who do it, too and then, in order to distance themselves from the devs, they denounce it. And I would bet, like with gay-bashers who are often closet-gays, the same applies here, too. So in a society that on the whole perceives disability as a tragedy and sexuality as something to be suppressed, it's no wonder that we have ended up where we are. How far any person, dev/dis or of any other kind, has advanced in their personal development determines IMO how much they buy into the 'tragedy' aspect. Life happens to everyone. Tragedy is a social construct as is suffering. On average, I believe devs to be ahead in the self-development curve. We have had to think about these things a lot and find our own perspectives and opinions. So for the most part I believe that Alf's statement You pity the disabled men you know while you feel guilty for being attracted to them. They are like broken objects to be felt sorry for, out of reach of your desire to repair them. They are seen in the light of all the things they cannot do and therefore they are also in need of your love and affection. actually applies to devs far less than the non-devs in our society. The need or desire for secrecy has much more culturally ingrained roots. From a personal perspective, while I do not use "I'm a dev, nice to meet you" as a conversation starter, I am not particularly secretive about it either. Nor do I talk about other aspects of my sexuality, but nobody has ever asked me anyway. In a relationship, I believe, is where full disclosure and honesty is a requirement. Outside of that, it's not.
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Post by Valkyrja on Apr 14, 2013 15:12:18 GMT -5
It's true that many devs feel guilty for their attraction but I disagree that those devs also pity disabled guys. To be honest though, I have never completely understood the guilt other devs have. If you have read any of my past posts about guilt, you will know that I never felt that way about my attraction. I know I am not the only one who feels this way and am glad you clarified that not all devs feel guilt. I agree with you, Emma. I used to feel guilty when I was young and I didn't know that I was a dev. Right now, I am perfectly okay with being a dev. And pity?... well, I can't remember feeling pity for a person. I do remember feeling bad about myself because, according to the society rules, you have to pity a person with a disability. And I never did. I always ended arguing with friends when they pitied a person.
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