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Post by Amee on Oct 23, 2019 2:21:25 GMT -5
It always baffles me, when I hear stories like that. I know it's not at all uncommon, but in my circle of friends, the reactions I've witnessed to PWDs were just so different. I remember one of my friends declared how hot Jake Sully was, after we'd watched "Avatar" in the cinema. Not even a mention of the wheelchair (by anyone). Another friend used to have a crush on some blind guy from a talent/singing show. She had a little poster of him in her room and when I was over at her place, she told me that he was blind and then waited, expectantly, very obviously testing my reaction. Which obviously was hilarious to me.
I have - twice already - "witnessed" people talking about disability and sexuality, though. Once, it was my parents, after my mother had seen a documentary about sexual surrogates for people with severe disabilities. My mom said something along the lines of how she really admired the sex surrogates, because where are PWDs supposed to go with their sexuality? It really pissed me off (although she was at least aware enough to realize that PWDs have sexual desires), but I was still too deep in dev secrecy to say anything at all. I did amuse myself with the thought of smoothly hitting them with the dev bomb in that situation. The other conversation was with a cousin. I don't remember the exact context, in which she brought it up, but she had also seen or read something about sexual surrogacy for PWDs. This was actually quite recently, so I was much better able to partake in the conversation, but it still frustrated me immensely that I wasn't able to tell her about devness and so had to leave out a lot of what I knew about the topic. I'm 90% sure she would've been very interested and non-judgmental about it and it would have made the conversation sooo much more interesting, but I couldn't do it. Really, really frustrating.
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Post by robbb on Oct 23, 2019 2:39:44 GMT -5
I've had a few of these ignorant conversations with ladies I've worked with about paraplegic customers.
One girl gushed about this handsome guy then said "what a shame he can't have sex any more".
Another time, similar conversation between two colleagues, one said the guy would probably "fall off" during sex.
Another said it was a known fact that an SCI "stops a guy having sexual desires".
People are so ignorant.
R.
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blindLeap
Full Member
The right-side-up edition
Posts: 192
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Relationship Status: Single
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Post by blindLeap on Oct 23, 2019 2:40:01 GMT -5
Ehh ...i get it and I also can't really condone it. To a degree, I get this as well, but more subtly. I don't walk with a cane anymore, I used to, I tend to walk with my guide dog now or even just on my own using my ears to echo-locate, it depends. But this kind of bigotry, a disability instantly making some undateable, is not new to me. The cane pretty much got me a wide birth at any social gathering I went to, especially if the majority of people came from small villages and communities which isn't uncommon here in NL. They don't know how to deal, so they don't. What I meant with more subtle though is more the whispers, stares and thoughts that follow me like bugs follow a bottle of coke you really were intending to enjoy on a hot summer's day. Even being out with a partner, my partner will get the " Oh my god i could not do that" spiel, or one step up, they are considered a saint for being with a blind person. If I walk past a toilet on my way to somewhere else in school, more than once it has happened that the latest gossip included me needing help to go to the toilet today. At such a moment I might turn around and go " It still works" as well just for a release for the build-up of sheer incredulity at that point :-)
I agree he probably shouldn't have gone there, but I am also trying to take other factors into account. If this was the third person pulling this stunt with him today, which happens believe me, I think I might have snapped at the person as well. And I am very hard to annoy or even phase negatively these days.
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Post by devogirl on Oct 23, 2019 5:05:20 GMT -5
OMG I just took part in the most infuriating conversation... I was at the playground with my kids and I met the husband of a neighbor who was there with their baby. We were chatting casually about work with another mom friend. The husband says his wife is about to start a new project stemming from her previous work (advocating for legal rights for sex workers). He says she's really bummed about the new project because it's so depressing and terrible, the work is important but so difficult and awful. He goes on at length in this vein.
DG: So what exactly is the new project? Husband: Advocacy for sexual services for severely disabled men. DG: (internally) AAAHHHHHGGGG also I'm in the wrong job, why isn't it me doing that? So not only was I thinking of this thread but also just now I've been reading so many stories on the PD site about men with severe CP, in particular Shadowboxing by Rowan and Lobster with a Straw by Lovis, and they are HOT. I just had to push back on this. DG: What's so horrible about that? I think it sounds great! Husband: (immediately walking it back) no, no, of course it's so important but it's just such a difficult population to deal with. Mom Friend: Yeah, it sounds difficult. DG: No way, I would totally do it! Husband: Well it will be hard with our baby too, we can't exactly take him to a rally with disabled people and sex workers. DG: Why not? It's fine! Eventually the conversation focused more on how she just doesn't want to do this project, and we all agreed that she shouldn't do it if she doesn't want to. I don't really know these people so the conversation didn't last much longer. I'm still fuming about it. Seriously, the last thing PWDs need is a person advocating for them who thinks of interacting with them as a horrible, depressing chore. But at least I got to challenge their thinking, no matter how slightly.
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Post by feelsunshine on Oct 23, 2019 6:22:53 GMT -5
Oh wow, that would be totally like my dream thing. Flirting with a cute guy who’s sitting by a table and gesturing for me to come over and only then I realize he’s in a wheelchair. I wish I was the person this happened to. Stupid girl that she didn’t go out with him!!
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Post by lars on Oct 23, 2019 7:33:41 GMT -5
Seriously, the last thing PWDs need is a person advocating for them who thinks of interacting with them as a horrible, depressing chore. But at least I got to challenge their thinking, no matter how slightly.
In things like these, challenging the thinking and normalizing PWDs as people who can be seen as attractive, sexually active individuals is in itself at the core of a lot of things discussed here on PD. Should having sex with a PWD be something else than a horrible, depressing chore, it makes you wonder, if there would be a whole less shame associated? Instead of a repulsive chore to take care of, it would go a long way if the unthinkable act of someone having sex with a PWD could be seen as being no big deal. That could go a long way for the well-being of PWDs themselves as well, as a whole. It also made me wonder if media's often awful portrayal of devs as a "thing" is horribly having the goal posts set at the wrong place, since the root of the problem lies in the attitudes that portray PWDs as sexual undesirables, and a big part of the problem is the taboo around disabled sexuality in itself being something worse, something to be avoided? Is that something, that could have its source at troubles that us PWDs often have when it comes to adapting to their ( new ) disabled identity? Especially for the guys with an acquired disability like SCI, I doubt it would be outrageous to say it's something that's at the source of a lot of insecurities which seriously affect the quality of life quite a bit. Shit journalism that focuses on devness as a sexual attraction towards PWDs who are undesirable, poor wretches struggling to adapt into their lives makes for an exceptionally bad starting point. While this thread is fantastic for highlighting some of the attitudes out there, and some of the attitudes are fucked up to begin with, it's good to come back to what you wrote about challenging people's thinking and expectations once in a while, no matter how slightly. I feel like I'm beating a dead horse here, but there's a lot to be said about LGBTQ awareness and attitudes, and how much both have changed, along with rights, over the last 20-30 years, and I do think that the portrayal of PWDs in media could benefit from a more positive exposure - life after the struggle to adapt. PWDs who are great at interior designing and have an immaculate style for clothes, that kind of bullshit polish it up. As long as most of the PWD-related journalism is written with a focus on the difficulties adapting into disabled life, it's going to suck for all of us, both the PWD, devs, hobbits, etc. It sucks to conclude this as a sour-faced Yoda, but it seems that fixing a lot of this shit has a lot to do with you, guys. So, as proud and strong members of a minority, for God's sake, go out there and have some fun! Got to adapt to that hot, disabled life, dawgs, because you've got to represent! When it comes to changing some stuck-up attitudes on an everyday basis, it's the kind of judging that people do with their eyes, without knowing any better. How could it be any other way? It's a big world out there and nothing works better than being out on a beautiful day, with an attractive girl by your side, both having a blast, with lots of laughing and smiles going on both sides. That could be something that PD and devs could help you with, too, but it all starts from adapting to your disabled life and having a life that can be seen as something else than a miserable fate. All I'm asking you to do is to go out there and have a good time, doing whatever. Work towards living a life in which you're having a good time, people will notice it - and even if they won't, well.. You're a F*:n pirate! Pirates come back home with plenty of booty and all that. P.S. It also helps to lift some weights, to use an easily approachable, fast-looking manual wheelchair and try to look like you didn't start your day by eating a big bowl of bullshit on an internet forum. If you drive a handsome electric behemoth, you're probably better off trying to charm them with something else than your big f*cking biceps, but that's a whole another topic. There are plenty of women who find big-headed loudmouths unattractive, but you still got to have a good time being you, that's kind of mandatory if you want to a happy ending, too. A healthy confidence goes a long way, and that's probably a bit hard without adapting into a disabled identity. edit: Well, it ended up as a surprisingly long and rambly post. The first part was more aimed at devs, the latter for the PWDs to change it. Yo, #Change 2020! second edit: It sucks to conclude this by correcting a hilariously long list of typos and typing like motherfucking Yoda to begin with, rallying PWDs with a cheesy warcry!
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blindLeap
Full Member
The right-side-up edition
Posts: 192
Gender: Male
Dev Status: Disabled Male
Relationship Status: Single
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Post by blindLeap on Oct 23, 2019 8:20:15 GMT -5
I think it doesn't help either that often PWD in general are represented by people who havve no disability whatsoever and know what they know about disabilities from a class they took. I've seen people who have never even met a blind person in their life represent the local NFB chapters. That ...doesn't help, either
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Post by SouthernCalGal on Oct 23, 2019 8:43:10 GMT -5
devogirl, where do I send my resume? I keep saying to myself I need to get a new job at a Non-profit focusing on disabilities 😉.
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Post by devogirl on Oct 23, 2019 8:50:41 GMT -5
Haha, sorry she's traveling overseas to do this; it's not in the US.
I wish I had pushed back even harder on this--why does he feel like he can't take his baby? Is it the sex worker part or the severely disabled part? Because if it's the latter, that's fucked up. Does he think a 4 month old will be traumatized by seeing a bunch of people in wheelchairs?
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Post by Amee on Oct 23, 2019 10:09:07 GMT -5
I wish I had pushed back even harder on this--why does he feel like he can't take his baby? Is it the sex worker part or the severely disabled part? Because if it's the latter, that's fucked up. Does he think a 4 month old will be traumatized by seeing a bunch of people in wheelchairs? I'm always inclined to give people the benefit of the doubt in these situations and assume he's worried about the sex worker part... but I also get the feeling I tend to be a bit naive on how messed up people's perceptions of PWDs can actually be, so who knows. And just to be clear: It's still silly to think he can't take his baby because of the sex worker part. I really get the feeling of wishing you had pushed back harder/said more... I felt that way with both of the conversations I've had on this topic. The one with my parents was years ago, I must've been about 19 or 20 or something, and I was still very deep in dev shame and secrecy back then, so I wasn't really in a position to say anything. (Although I did really like the imaginary conversational come-backs I came up with afterwards ) In the second conversation I did try to challenge my cousin's perceptions a little and she was relatively open-minded to begin with, but it's just so hard, when you're simultaneously trying to leave things out that could lead to some questions on her part, which could then lead to a semi-forced "outing".
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Post by Braced4Impact on Oct 23, 2019 10:23:43 GMT -5
Going back to the OP, I'd bet a buck that if any of those women were asked "would you date a guy in a wheelchair" they'd say "oh yeah, of course," because no one wants to look shallow.
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Post by SouthernCalGal on Oct 23, 2019 11:42:52 GMT -5
I've had a few of these ignorant conversations with ladies I've worked with about paraplegic customers. One girl gushed about this handsome guy then said "what a shame he can't have sex any more". Another time, similar conversation between two colleagues, one said the guy would probably "fall off" during sex. Another said it was a known fact that an SCI "stops a guy having sexual desires". People are so ignorant. R. I just have to ask - who parents kids to grow up to become adults saying these things??? devogirl just answered my question by writing about those parents - UGH!!! Having read through all these posts and having heard this conversation first hand, I am dismayed that adults continue to have views like this and perpetuate stereotypes based on ignorant thinking. I've shared here before that I have had dev feelings since childhood (pre-teen). Looking back, I was always curious about those that were disabled but in a caring, kind and inquisitive way. I don't ever remember viewing PWDs with anything other than equality, even in those bumpy teen years. I wonder if this was the early dev in me? If it is who I am as a person in general or a combination of both - that is what I am assuming. I have been fortunate to not be a part of disparaging conversations like the one I wrote about and the ones that robbb references. I do know that if I am included in one in the future, I will speak up.
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Post by Nate on Oct 23, 2019 12:23:40 GMT -5
no one wants to look shallow. I do.
Depth is overrated, clearly.
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Post by Braced4Impact on Oct 23, 2019 12:57:29 GMT -5
Going back to the OP, I'd bet a buck that if any of those women were asked "would you date a guy in a wheelchair" they'd say "oh yeah, of course," because no one wants to look shallow. Nope, I disagree. I’ve had this convo several times with a lot of women and the majority say no, they “couldn’t do it,” and that’s to me who they know “could, and has.” It’s out of ignorance, they likely have never known a disabled person aside from their great-uncle with MS and assume they’d have to be a caregiver, he can’t have sex, etc. “In a wheelchair” is such a vague description to those of us who pay attention, but to the majority of people who aren’t paying attention, when they hear “in a wheelchair,” they aren’t picturing lars , they’re picturing their great-uncle with MS. I have, on the other hand, shown friends pics of pwd guys I find hot and there have been a few who definitely see the appeal and attitudes definitely change when I can control the image in their head a little bit 😚 For the benefit of all gimp-kind, don't show them my pic
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Post by MarineAmp on Oct 23, 2019 13:30:29 GMT -5
So I have to come defend the guy about the "it works comment." After I was injured and back on the dating scene, I was asked a lot if it was still even there, along with if it worked. I remember having a conversation about how hard it was for her to ask that. It was a long conversation, but it boiled down to she almost didn't want to go on a date, until I made it clear she could ask any personal questions that may be embarrassing. After that I had my own version of saying everything works. I think it was something like "my legs got blown off, but nothing else."
I know that may not be all that important to all devs, but for guy's cocks that are working, it is kind of a big deal.
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