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Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2019 18:19:19 GMT -5
Why do you feel that way, Dani ? I don’t have a problem discussing things like that and find any thought interesting, as long as it is out of the interest in the matter and uttered in a respectful manner? I think, openness is one of the most important aspects of a site like PD, of which one of the great things is to learn to understand each other. The reason I replied to brinzerdecalli's post like I did is because it sounded "pretentious". I'm using this word because I just read over in the "Is devness really so rare" thread that he used this word about himself and it's exactly how his post comes across. I can't help to notice that he ignored my explanation on my personal meaning for devness completely, but that's okay. As for explaining my post some more...how would it seem if I tried to explain what disabilty means to people? I have no idea really but I would of course read any responses and explanation of actual disabled persons and try to understand and learn. So I'm definitely open for discussion but some things that I would know nothing about, I would probably not really say much. It didn't help that in this same thread further in the beginning we had some serious issues as a member thought he knew what devness is/encompasses and with that came across very rude toward a dev in belittling devness and saying some rude things. So exactly as I wrote it, I am a bit weary of some guys trying to explain what devness is. It's perfectly okay to discuss different views but it depends a lot on how it is written and if views sound like a lecture or like a person is above everyone else, it gets a bit frustrating. Again sometimes, online, things can come across wrong but sometimes it is also okay to just step back a bit. I am dealing with this myself as I can come across as rude but don't really mean it. And sometimes I don't have the right words to explain my stance.
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Post by infinatedreams on Dec 17, 2019 18:43:37 GMT -5
I think Dani is right, I can't explain what being a dev is like or how they feel and as well the same applies the other way around. At best PD helps with a general understanding of what makes us tick, but no more than that. As im typing this I thought to myself how would I explain why I'm attracted to women. I don't know how I'd answer that, other than 'I am and I cant help it, simply it's how I'm wired' .... as far as I'm concerned that's enough of an answer to me for any attraction (legal of course) and I don't need an explanation why, it's just none of my business. I couldn't explain nor lecture on what a dev is other than possibly a broad gereralistic overview from personal experiences. It's a bit like a white guy explaining how it feels to be racially abused because of the colour of your skin. Just cant do it and can appear condescending if you try. For me, I'm happy to talk about my disability, living with it, how its changed my life, that's shit I know all about. The dev stuff is best left to devs and only then if they are willing to share what is a very personal and what can be quite specific to them.
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brinzerdecalli
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I hope to encounter some interesting and uniquely minded people.
Posts: 217
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Dev Status: Disabled Male
Relationship Status: Single
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Post by brinzerdecalli on Dec 17, 2019 21:54:47 GMT -5
I also don't believe we need a "new" label...I already don't like devotee very much. I don't think it's that easy to explain all fetishes brinzerdecalli There may be some you can explain that simple but I believe some fetishes are rooted in something much deeper, sometimes very painful situations and experiences that have occured in people's lives and with that some people don't even know why they like what they like. It's a tapestry of many reasons why a person likes certain things in a sexual way and sometimes too complicated to figure out. Again, I'm referring to fetish as something that manifests merely sexual... So this is my personal opinion, I know there are devs who consider devoteeism a fetish, I don't. I don't like it very much when devoteeism is limited to just a fetish. I know it is different for every devotee though. A fetish to me is the desire/need for an object or a situation including an object that gets me off sexually, something I like and enjoy and something that is non Vanilla or off the norm on what regular sexual interactions includes. It is an "object" that gets me off or a situation with said object (s) that I either may imagine or may actually act on and as a result get off on. A PWD is not an object, he/she is a human being. Personally I don't get off imagining a guy in a wheelchair or anything in that sense. I don't look at YouTube vids of guys in wheelchairs and rub myself in front of the computer. I don't feel the pressing urge to act on meeting a PWD to fulfill my sexual desires because I get that otherwise. There are some things that turn me on and could be part of that PWD or something about him but it is not the only thing I need to fulfill sexual urges. First and foremost is the person himself that interests me and his life and everything about him. Yes, I love looking at an attractive guy in a wheelchair but it is not what gets me off. For me being a devotee means a profound interest in the person, their life, their story and everything about them really. It is maybe more like an orientation as mentioned above but not neccessarily sexual. The person comes first and with that possibly the sexual interest but it is not my primary attraction. I have to agree with what was said above that it is more a heart feeling, not a feeling between my legs. I have fetishes I like and things that get me off but I don't consider being a devotee a fetish. Dani , is this the one you wanted me to address?! I did read it and included influences in what I wrote. Is there a specific piece you like me to readdress or pay more attention to? I haven't responded directly to everyone's post, and I hope you don't nor anyone takes that personally! I'm also sorry if my writing offends you in anyway! I just have a lot of interest in the topic and don't know how to both write in an intelligible yet challenging manner without sounding pretentious. I feel like that is almost impossible to some degree. :/ I could just agree with everyone, but that then doesn't spur the dialogue further.
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brinzerdecalli
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I hope to encounter some interesting and uniquely minded people.
Posts: 217
Gender: Male
Dev Status: Disabled Male
Relationship Status: Single
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Post by brinzerdecalli on Dec 17, 2019 22:23:29 GMT -5
The interesting thing is a lot of people identify devness as an enthusiasm and passion for learning about disabled people, but at the same time don't like the word devotee. Devotee just means someone who has a special investment and "devotion" to something. There's sports devotees and religion devotees. Somehow the fetishizing of disabled people became the main modern meaning of devotee. Even the phrasing paraplegic devotee is not fully encompassing of what we call devness, and only a small subset of devs are specifically interested in only paraplegic people. I also first think developer when I hear dev, @caustic-crip . It's a shame, cause otherwise, all the tech meetups I go to could be a lot more fun... lol I think it's best to leave the explanation about what a devotee is to the devotees. I would never even attempt to explain what "disabled" means to each guy on here. Take this moment to sit back and learn about devs and it's okay to say "oh interesting, I didn't know" or "I never thought about it that way"... I personally am a bit weary of guys trying to tell us what a dev is or means I also would like to clarify this was talking about the word "devotee", not the people who identify as such. I would never tell someone what they feel or define their identity. I may sum up what I have been reading, or things I have heard or saw, and open a new perspective to talk about from it. I think that is important to understanding for all. I welcome you to say what you think disabled means or heard others say about it! I think it could be a very fulfilling conversation full of much introspection and enlightenment! A dev would have a very unique perspective on this that I would love to hear!
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Post by darthoso on Dec 18, 2019 0:11:11 GMT -5
cooks (where he been at?) and a dev said it best around when I first joined, hang around long enough and you'll eventually date someone. How long? Could be years. My guess is most who voted yes have been around awhile and the no's are mostly all you newbies.
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Post by Amee on Dec 18, 2019 2:49:55 GMT -5
cooks (where he been at?) and a dev said it best around when I first joined, hang around long enough and you'll eventually date someone. How long? Could be years. My guess is most who voted yes have been around awhile and the no's are mostly all you newbies. That would be an interesting thing to survey, too. We should have gender-specific polls with time-frames Because my guess is that a dev could find a date/hook-up much quicker than a guy, if she's looking. The numbers alone favour us, as far as I'm aware.
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blindLeap
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Post by blindLeap on Dec 18, 2019 4:59:51 GMT -5
missparkle I think it depends on what we mean by explaining/understanding devness. What is the goal? If we are talking about understanding an individual person and their devness, then of course that person is the closest to an expert on that (not that we completely understand ourselves ) and on an individual one-on-one level, it's best for a guy to listen and try to be empathetic. But when we're talking about devness as a phenomenon as a whole, I don't see why guys, who have been interacting and listening to devs for a while, who have perhaps even had some real-life encounters or relationships with devs, shouldn't share their observations respectfully and partake in the conversation. As I've said before: there's something to be said for the outside perspective. Whether you want to hear it in a place like this or not, is an entirely different question and I understand that some devs don't want to hear it. For some, this place is just about individual discovery and acceptance and not "academic" interest in devness as a phenomenon. Personally, I have some "academic" interest in devness as a phenomenen as well, so I find outside observations interesting That is , to some degree, my stance, although my interest isn't so much academic as it is just something I want to know more about because to me, somewhat contrary to what a lot of people here I think have experienced in life, devness is something that should be ok to explore, ok to express, ok to be. At times it just saddens me how much shame and repressed feelings I see from time to time ...obviously I understand and empathize, but I just wish it wasn't necessary. Honestly makes me wonder if I'm weird for being so accepting of it but I really am, and if I were to have a partner that is a dev, I would encourage expressing that aspect of themselves, be it sexual or not, or at least indicate that it's ok to do so especially in private where there's nobody to judge. Sorry if this is rambly, didn't have the greatest night of sleep :-)
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Post by missparkle on Dec 18, 2019 5:12:47 GMT -5
missparkle I think it depends on what we mean by explaining/understanding devness. What is the goal? If we are talking about understanding an individual person and their devness, then of course that person is the closest to an expert on that (not that we completely understand ourselves ) and on an individual one-on-one level, it's best for a guy to listen and try to be empathetic. But when we're talking about devness as a phenomenon as a whole, I don't see why guys, who have been interacting and listening to devs for a while, who have perhaps even had some real-life encounters or relationships with devs, shouldn't share their observations respectfully and partake in the conversation. As I've said before: there's something to be said for the outside perspective. Whether you want to hear it in a place like this or not, is an entirely different question and I understand that some devs don't want to hear it. For some, this place is just about individual discovery and acceptance and not "academic" interest in devness as a phenomenon. Personally, I have some "academic" interest in devness as a phenomenen as well, so I find outside observations interesting That is , to some degree, my stance, although my interest isn't so much academic as it is just something I want to know more about because to me, somewhat contrary to what a lot of people here I think have experienced in life, devness is something that should be ok to explore, ok to express, ok to be. At times it just saddens me how much shame and repressed feelings I see from time to time ...obviously I understand and empathize, but I just wish it wasn't necessary. Honestly makes me wonder if I'm weird for being so accepting of it but I really am, and if I were to have a partner that is a dev, I would encourage expressing that aspect of themselves, be it sexual or not, or at least indicate that it's ok to do so especially in private where there's nobody to judge. Sorry if this is rambly, didn't have the greatest night of sleep :-)
Amee , yes, I agree, I am always eager to hear and understand what guys think! It is of crucial importance to me! But I want them, badly, to explain what they think, how they feel about our dev feeling towards them, not to explain to me how I feel.
blindLeap , "it's ok to do so especially in private where there's nobody to judge". No, no, no... I have personally never felt any shame or had concerns what will others say! I was as proud as one can be, when I was for a walk with my wheeler down the streets of my small town, or introducing him to my family and friends. But I was always concerned, ashamed and feeling guilty in front pwd population, in front of that very person. I had problem with "deriving pleasure from someone else's misfortune".
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blindLeap
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Posts: 192
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Post by blindLeap on Dec 18, 2019 5:43:25 GMT -5
That is , to some degree, my stance, although my interest isn't so much academic as it is just something I want to know more about because to me, somewhat contrary to what a lot of people here I think have experienced in life, devness is something that should be ok to explore, ok to express, ok to be. At times it just saddens me how much shame and repressed feelings I see from time to time ...obviously I understand and empathize, but I just wish it wasn't necessary. Honestly makes me wonder if I'm weird for being so accepting of it but I really am, and if I were to have a partner that is a dev, I would encourage expressing that aspect of themselves, be it sexual or not, or at least indicate that it's ok to do so especially in private where there's nobody to judge. Sorry if this is rambly, didn't have the greatest night of sleep :-)
Amee , yes, I agree, I am always eager to hear and understand what guys think! It is of crucial importance to me! But I want them, badly, to explain what they think, how they feel about our dev feeling towards them, not to explain to me how I feel.
I had problem with "deriving pleasure from someone else's misfortune".
Hmm ...interesting. Really interesting, thank you for sharing that perspective. So ... I guess the shame aspect affects you less, orw ell ...when it comes to the general public that is. However I find it interesting you identify a disability as someone's misfortune. Or at least ...that is how I am reading your comment. if I'm wrong please feel free to correct me. But in my case, I don't really see my disability as such. My blindness is a part of me, in ways an asset more than a hindrance and I don't really see it as a negative for about 99% of the time, so I'm having a little trouble resonating with that point. Would that view on disability I have change anything for you feeling that way, just out of interest?
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Post by missparkle on Dec 18, 2019 6:10:15 GMT -5
Amee , yes, I agree, I am always eager to hear and understand what guys think! It is of crucial importance to me! But I want them, badly, to explain what they think, how they feel about our dev feeling towards them, not to explain to me how I feel.
I had problem with "deriving pleasure from someone else's misfortune".
Hmm ...interesting. Really interesting, thank you for sharing that perspective. So ... I guess the shame aspect affects you less, orw ell ...when it comes to the general public that is. However I find it interesting you identify a disability as someone's misfortune. Or at least ...that is how I am reading your comment. if I'm wrong please feel free to correct me. But in my case, I don't really see my disability as such. My blindness is a part of me, in ways an asset more than a hindrance and I don't really see it as a negative for about 99% of the time, so I'm having a little trouble resonating with that point. Would that view on disability I have change anything for you feeling that way, just out of interest? Yes, you understood me correctly, I do see disability as misfortune. Here I'd like to use the opportunity to apologize to any of you guys, if anyone finds this offensive, it is not my intention. So, to elaborate. I really feel sorry that you can not experience the view of the sky in the sunset, when sun touches the sea. I feel sorry that you can not experience the magnificence of cliffs sourounding you when you drive through the narrow river canyon. I feel sorry you can not see the woods in spring in its full blossom. Winter sky full of stars. I can try, really badly, to explain it all, but there are no words that can paint that experience. On the other hand, I feel really happy for you, that you don't miss all those things, how could you?! And that you found your ways through this life without sight and you don't find it misfortune. I am sincerely happy for you! So no matter what you say, my feelings towards it are still dual. And for me that is the beauty of that dev feelings.
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blindLeap
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Post by blindLeap on Dec 18, 2019 6:36:05 GMT -5
Hmm ...interesting. Really interesting, thank you for sharing that perspective. So ... I guess the shame aspect affects you less, orw ell ...when it comes to the general public that is. However I find it interesting you identify a disability as someone's misfortune. Or at least ...that is how I am reading your comment. if I'm wrong please feel free to correct me. But in my case, I don't really see my disability as such. My blindness is a part of me, in ways an asset more than a hindrance and I don't really see it as a negative for about 99% of the time, so I'm having a little trouble resonating with that point. Would that view on disability I have change anything for you feeling that way, just out of interest? Yes, you understood me correctly, I do see disability as misfortune. Here I'd like to use the opportunity to apologize to any of you guys, if anyone finds this offensive, it is not my intention. So, to elaborate. I really feel sorry that you can not experience the view of the sky in the sunset, when sun touches the sea. I feel sorry that you can not experience the magnificence of cliffs sourounding you when you drive through the narrow river canyon. I feel sorry you can not see the woods in spring in its full blossom. Winter sky full of stars. I can try, really badly, to explain it all, but there are no words that can paint that experience. On the other hand, I feel really happy for you, that you don't miss all those things, how could you?! And that you found your ways through this life without sight and you don't find it misfortune. I am sincerely happy for you! So no matter what you say, my feelings towards it are still dual. And for me that is the beauty of that dev feelings. Hmm ...yeah, that is a really interestin viewpoint to me. I could argue that the fact you feel those experiences are worthy of missing, I might nog agree at all, but I can't make that call since i simply don't know if I would. Then again, I think it is also true that I see nuances and aspects in experiences of the other senses that, due to you having sight, fade so far into the background that you become unaware of them, and that is something I at times pitty the non-ocularly-challenged for. In a sense, where one door closes , others open for me, which is how I've always experienced that particular disharmony. So I'd go as far as saying that's where I have a slight case of dual feelings going on :-) Good examples are certain layers of music that others are largely oblivious to, the complex interplay of all your senses being spoken to at once during an intimate act like sex where the visual doesn't take front and center stage, something I'm sure those who've experimented with blindfolds can attest to at least to some degree. Even just being in a certain environment and letting it's sounds, scents, tastes and tactile experiences filter through ... these are things I've always been able to enjoy, which is why I can honestly say I enjoy traveling to different places even if one's first thought might be that since I miss the visual, I'd miss a large part of that experience. Again, thanks for answering my question :-)
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Post by missparkle on Dec 18, 2019 6:56:35 GMT -5
blindLeap, you are welcome, anytime! I am absolutely aware that "where one door closes, the other opens" and that "other door" is what I am happy about. Even fascinated to some extent. As if life took something from you, but gave you valuable gift in return. However, for me, from my point of view, I can't help but to regret a bit that closed door, since I am aware what's behind. Just to add, I am not particularly blindness dev, but I wouldn't turn my back on hot blind guy. Lol I had professor in highschool who was blind, and there were definitely some devy moments. Lol I would ask you for a favour now, in return. I was brutally honest, expressing my point of view that will not bring me "miss popularity" title! Lol I want you to try to explain to me, as honestly and opened, how my dev feelings make you feel? Especially that "closed door" feelings of mine? You can't be really ecstatic about me feeling sorry, right? Do you find it offensive? Does it chalange your self esteem, in any way?
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blindLeap
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Post by blindLeap on Dec 18, 2019 11:18:48 GMT -5
blindLeap , you are welcome, anytime! I am absolutely aware that "where one door closes, the other opens" and that "other door" is what I am happy about. Even fascinated to some extent. As if life took something from you, but gave you valuable gift in return. However, for me, from my point of view, I can't help but to regret a bit that closed door, since I am aware what's behind. Just to add, I am not particularly blindness dev, but I wouldn't turn my back on hot blind guy. Lol I had professor in highschool who was blind, and there were definitely some devy moments. Lol I would ask you for a favour now, in return. I was brutally honest, expressing my point of view that will not bring me "miss popularity" title! Lol I want you to try to explain to me, as honestly and opened, how my dev feelings make you feel? Especially that "closed door" feelings of mine? You can't be really ecstatic about me feeling sorry, right? Do you find it offensive? Does it chalange your self esteem, in any way? That is an interesting question. No ...I don't think it challenges my self-esteem. That is ...it doesn't now. It might have, a number of years ago, when I was not as steady in my shoes as I am now as it were. I think a lot of people would say you're wrong for feeling that pity, and I don't think that's fair. It's exactly as you say; you know what is behind that closed door, so it is fair you can feel pity for me not knowing that. However, I think it's also true that you can't estimate or fully imagine what the value is of the thing that was ...given back to me, as you put it. So ...do I think your pity is warranted? No, because in my view, what I got back is more valuable than what I lost, because I can only equate what I lost to being zero, as I have no adequate frame of reference to do anything else. Do I therefore think your pity is wrong? No , I think you have the same problem I do, but flipped on it's head as it were, and you're drawing the only conclusion you can based on what you know for certain. And I don't think anyone should, or can reliably defend, telling you you're wrong or unpopular for having that opinion. Obviously this is my view, and just like every dev is different, I would say every PWD is as well, because every person is, and collective normality to the degree it is often clung to is a myth. But I hope that gives you more insight into how I see things, atl east :-)
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Post by linda on Dec 18, 2019 17:11:10 GMT -5
You get my vote for „Miss Popularity“ for sure, missparkle, for all those interesting, enlightening and honest posts of yours that I can 100% relate to.
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blindLeap
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Post by blindLeap on Dec 19, 2019 3:53:28 GMT -5
You get my vote for „Miss Popularity“ for sure, missparkle , for all those interesting, enlightening and honest posts of yours that I can 100% relate to. Haha, can't say I disagree. That discussion was fun :-) Haven't had to think about these things that deliberately in a while, I appreciate the insight so much :-)
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