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Post by Inigo Montoya on Mar 29, 2014 15:45:03 GMT -5
This isn't meant to be a critical statement, it happens to us all in some aspect of our lives... It seems like you ladies are your own worst enemies, to me. Why would you all carry guilt about attraction that you didn't choose? Here's a question I'd love an answer to as well, why the drive to disclose? (OP I can start a new thread if you'd sooner I don't ask my questions here, just let me know) If you were with an able bodied guy would you be compelled to spell out exactly what it is that draws you to him? I don't mean to make light of your experiences, it just seems alien to me... if you like the guy, you like the guy... are the specific reasons why important? Explanations, not argument... The Guilt!I am glad of the opportunity to talk about the guilt. Someone else from here had made a comment to me about it recently. It's kind of hard for me now, because I don't really have it any more, but I do still remember how it used to eat me up... It seems that most of our younger members do not (thankfully!!!) experience the guilt the way that some of us older peeps do/did. There are a couple of things that are related to the guilt. (For me... as always, only speaking for myself... and in no way implying that I speak for others here.) One, I think, is how early I was aware of it. I remember being somewhere between 5 and 7 and playing with some older kids (2 different occasions). At my request, we played hospital. There was something about that play that made me feel really, really uncomfortable about myself. The way that I felt during those times convinced me of 2 things: 1. That I needed to never play hospital again and 2. That I needed to hide how it made me feel. So, currently, I am theorizing that experiencing sexual (fetishy)feelings prior to puberty led to a great deal of my need for secrecy which I think was seriously tied in with my guilt. It was very organic and, I think, not uncommon with people who's attractions are considered outside the norm (I really hate that ours are... but they seem to be). Another thing is that once I started having serious crushes, there is not a single AB guy that I've crushed on that I didn't disable in my mind/fantasies. There was always a (seemingly) ridiculous fear that my fantasy disabling would somehow create a karmic reality disabling. Because life likes to fuck with us all, two of those guys have been disabled since we all hit adulthood. Those two were from a tiny private school with around 20-30 students... seems like a high ratio to me. Another facet of the guilt is that I am very attracted to the very thing that most likely has caused the OOMA (Object of My Affection) a great deal of emotional and physical trauma. Also, the very thing also continues to cause the OOMA a great deal of difficulty in daily life. So, the times I have tried to develop an emotional attachment with a guy here it's with the understanding that one of the things he hates most about himself and/or his life. Try that sometime, it is a road to emotional scorched earth, lemme tell ya. Even though there will be many other facets of him and physical things about him that I like/adore... that fact is generally bound to cause an issue. Idk where you are with things... but one of my fantasies is to play with a para's quiet legs... how would you genuinely feel about that if you hate the way they make you move and the other things that paralysis does to you? The Middle!I'm not sure whether this next bit belongs in the guilt or disclosure part, so I'm sticking it in the middle. I can't remember which of the newer wheelers mentioned hearing about devs and hearing bad things. If it wasn't you, go to any message board for SCI and search "devotee" read what they say there and imagine it was being said about you. It is almost never pretty. I think it's still safe to say we're pretty universally despised in many PWD circles. Disclosure!I am curious about how many of your sexual partners since you've been disabled have thoroughly incorporated your disability in love making? << Kinda random-ish and kinda not question. I know way more about disability than your average Jolene. Way. More. I have read about and seen pics of pressure sores. I am well aware of the dangers of pressure sores and UTIs. I am well aware of bladder and bowel programs (and how sometimes there are accidents). I am aware of shit you can do to prevent UTIs during your bladder program. I am not a medical professional. I watched the rise and fall of Marvel wheelchairs. I recently recommended the FreeWheel to the sis of one of the dudes from my childhood who was recently disabled. (Really, he fell back in October, T-10ish para. I was very proud of him for making his own standing frame. Not that she mentioned that to him, I hope.) I am aware of standing frames, different types. I know about the impotence and a variety of things to aid that. Lots. Of. Dis. Shit. I knows it. Because most PWDs don't seek out information about random stuff until they need it, until the run up against that problem. Imagine that I meet a super cool para at the grocery store or auto parts store (headed both those places after I finish this, ha!)... is he accustomed to peeps knowing this kind of stuff? No. Probably not even his family knows all of it. We go to dinner a few times. He mentions how he used to really love being outdoors but now it's so hard... I mention the FreeWheel. He mentions that it was once his dream to become a small plane pilot... I assure him that there are hand controls for that just like a car. During conversations, I continue to mention helpful things about disability. Will he never wonder how I know? If he asks about how I know so much, should I tell him that I read a lot? Do I choose NOT to mention those things? It's an actual choice that many of us face. I know women who met and married their dream man and didn't disclose, only to witness him ranting about devs and how awful they are. Not a fun position to be in. So, yeah, we recommend that devs tell. Because nobody wants to spend lots of time coming to love someone only to discover that they despise a major part of your sexuality. There's prolly more, but I'm going to stop here. This is REALLY long so if anyone gets all the way to the bottom, kudos and thanks. I hope that more devs share because I know that I've not covered it all. And I hope that it gives you an idea about why we are our own worst enemy. I'm not going to argue that point at all. I see it too much in myself to say it's wrong. Random AdditionI (and some other devs) am more aware of some of this stuff than other peeps in the general population in large part because men from here have ASKED. They wanted to know what I was attracted to and WHY. Have you ever tried to suss out WHY you're attracted to something? I finally put down the shovel and stopped digging for that answer.
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Post by Inigo Montoya on Mar 29, 2014 15:46:30 GMT -5
Oh, and I am not a closeted dev. Most of my immediate family knows, as do many of my friends and at least half of my co-workers.
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Post by Maurine on Mar 29, 2014 16:32:13 GMT -5
I never really felt guilty about my devness, but I recognise myself in what you say. Like you I spent my childhood and youth daydreaming about AB crushes and fictional characters from my fantasy and books being injured in an accident. Maybe I should feel guilty that I don't feel guilty about it. You said that younger devs generally feel less guilty. Might this be due to their being raised in a more liberal society? I gave a shorter answer to Zaphod's question in the original thread and then found myself wandering from the subject a bit. It doesn't really fit in here either, but it doesn't seem adequate to me to start a new thread for it either, so I'd just like to copy-paste part of what I wrote there to this thread: I once read a very long, supposedly neutral, but really judgemental text about devoteism stating among a lot other things that devs liked to defend themselves by comparing their attraction to stumps to regular men's attraction to boobs. So far, so good. The text then claimed that devs were well aware that in fact their attraction was something entirely different in moral terms. Well, I don't see the difference at all. It also claimed that devness (in men and women alike) was about feeling superior because of physical superiority. Well, in most heterosexual relationships, the male part is physically superior to the female part. I hope this doesn't make them feel superior to their partner. I know for a fact that I don't regard my boyfriend as inferior, actually this is an absolutely ridiculous thought, and I'm pretty sure that most devs on here would agree with me. There are people who consider wheelers to be weak, but devs are probably the last people to do so. Maybe the author judged the devs by his own standards.
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Post by Inigo Montoya on Mar 29, 2014 16:47:06 GMT -5
I think it fits here just fine. I do think the lack of guilt in younger devs has to do, in part, with a more liberal society. But I also think that it also has a lot to do with the availability of the internet and exposure to more things. I can only imagine what a difference it would have made for me if I had found PD and disabled dating sites when I was 20 instead of 36. Those are a pretty important 16 years. Your article kinda supports what I was saying, in that we are not generally well regarded on the interwebz. I've seen those kinds of things... we've actually had discussions about that kind of stuff here, in the past. I'm glad that you posted.
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Post by Enid on Mar 29, 2014 17:05:02 GMT -5
About disclosing: Devness is a huge part of my life. I've spent so much time, reading, researching and thinking about disability that I'm honestly not sure what my life would look like without it. It affects how I see the world. It's a "secret" I've carried around for too long. Not disclosing it means hiding a huge part of my life. I even told the last AB I was with.
About "guilt", I've realized it's not the proper word for it. "Guilt" is just a shorthand for all the fucked up emotions that come along with devness, but it's not really about feeling guilty.
The main problem, and I'd call this "cognitive dissonance" more than guilt, is about being aroused by your loved one's pain (while feeling the pain at the same time!). Believe it or not, I've been raised in a culture where getting off on somebody's pain is not seen as a proper thing to do. And even if society didn't "impose" this belief on me, just the disconnection it brings in a relationship is fucked up enough to need to be able to talk about it. Disability is my safe haven, it's where I go to for comfort when I'm stressed or sad or bored. Clearly this might be a problem when in a relationship with a guy who is going through it and doesn't see it in that light (understandably).
It's also about the secrecy and the fucked up things you'll do to try to conceal it. I do feel actually guilty about some of that stuff, but I'd do it again too. I'm scared about how some people might react (there's been bad experiences) and I'm not willing to "come out" to the world unless it's necessary (ie. a serious relationship).
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Post by rebel6842 on Mar 29, 2014 19:25:45 GMT -5
At the risk of getting jumped on again, and from a male perspective: Does a portion of the guilt stem from society telling you that you're not SUPPOSED to be attracted to PWD's to begin with? If I'm oversimplifying here, let me know
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Post by Enid on Mar 29, 2014 20:43:21 GMT -5
At the risk of getting jumped on again, and from a male perspective: Does a portion of the guilt stem from society telling you that you're not SUPPOSED to be attracted to PWD's to begin with? If I'm oversimplifying here, let me know Not really. That makes me feel misunderstoood, but not guilty. It's actually where the hiding comes from, I guess. But I feel guilty about hiding, not about the feelings themselves.
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Post by greeneyedvillan on Mar 29, 2014 22:41:01 GMT -5
wow. now this is why I joined here. thank you to all the ladies for being so open and up front.
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Post by janebluelightning on Mar 29, 2014 22:55:05 GMT -5
Fantastic stuff here ladies.
One thing though, I'm not sure I understand the self esteem or lack thereof that you speak of. TC 123 I would put you at around 38ish? And Lu at over 49
I get the lack of self esteem when we are young. Believe me, as the only kid in school with a disability I have gone through the low self esteem. But as a young adult and even a teen, I don't think I lacked in that department. I am comfortable with the fact that I really look different than anyone else. I have wondered what I must look like to other people. Maybe it was sport in my life that was a vehicle to success in other parts of my life. Maybe I was just out there in front doing it all, that crushed any lack of self esteem. More then likely it was being at every bush party like any other guy , that exposed me to more and more people who either accepted me or moved on. I wear my differences on my pants leg here...
Do you think those feelings from youth are relevant today? As adults What would it take to put those in the past and not allow those feelings to dictate who you are?
I asked before, what's the worst that could happen if people in your life knew your attraction to amps or quads or whatever? Are losing those relationships with ppl that would shun you for your attraction really worth keeping? Are they worth investing your time in? Are they worth allowing them to be part of your life? Are they the type that you would want to be an infuence on your children???
I can't stand shallow people like that. I have a very short fuse for tolerating dip shits.
Anyway, still enjoy reading what you ladies are telling us here I know there are some girls who almost never post. It would be nice to hear about this part of their life.
If my woman came to me and said "hey look, I'm really turned on by the fact you are a double amp and the past six years has been great and your disability makes sex out of this world, better than I ever thought it could be". I would be fine with it. Wouldn't turn me off at all. All in stride right?
I have heard some you say you've had negative experiences with people who find out your attraction to us guys. Tell me like what....
JBL.
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Post by lavly on Mar 30, 2014 6:31:35 GMT -5
About disclosing: Devness is a huge part of my life. I've spent so much time, reading, researching and thinking about disability that I'm honestly not sure what my life would look like without it. It affects how I see the world. It's a "secret" I've carried around for too long. Not disclosing it means hiding a huge part of my life. I even told the last AB I was with. About "guilt", I've realized it's not the proper word for it. "Guilt" is just a shorthand for all the fucked up emotions that come along with devness, but it's not really about feeling guilty. The main problem, and I'd call this "cognitive dissonance" more than guilt, is about being aroused by your loved one's pain (while feeling the pain at the same time!). Believe it or not, I've been raised in a culture where getting off on somebody's pain is not seen as a proper thing to do. And even if society didn't "impose" this belief on me, just the disconnection it brings in a relationship is fucked up enough to need to be able to talk about it. Disability is my safe haven, it's where I go to for comfort when I'm stressed or sad or bored. Clearly this might be a problem when in a relationship with a guy who is going through it and doesn't see it in that light (understandably). It's also about the secrecy and the fucked up things you'll do to try to conceal it. I do feel actually guilty about some of that stuff, but I'd do it again too. I'm scared about how some people might react (there's been bad experiences) and I'm not willing to "come out" to the world unless it's necessary (ie. a serious relationship). what she said
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Post by lavly on Mar 30, 2014 7:19:04 GMT -5
someone reasntly said that some of us devs are a bit hursh in our responces cos we have been through it all before. i think i feel like this about this topic ... cos even though its a great question and one that i try and asnwer everytime it comes up, yet for me it still brings up a bit of anger.
most new guys voice this question/ statment at some point ... ( and in SOME cases stick around a bit and then come back a week later to tell us we are fucked and that there out- but hey we have been through this on another thread lol) so yeah your right/ they are right in there qury. why do we feel gulty? and is it gult? or is it the confusion that arises in me when i realise that im wet after feeling compation /empaty for my dude.
so for me its about that disonance that fucks with my head...that dule reality. cos you so feel the pain and you see how fucked it is for him ... and you feel for him ... and yettttttttttttt.....
when i go to disabled forms there is all this hateful post about devs on there and i find that i get so defencive and all in your face about how im not objectifing ... and and how im the best type of partner to my para dude. and so on.
but then when im on pd and a dude say why are you gulty ? and places me on a pedistal / sianthood. and im all like claws out and in your face and ofcores im gulty ... what do you think i do ... being a dev is all about getting off on my dudes pain.
so maybe the truth lives somewhere inbtween . that what i belive to be is true lies inbitween these to paradimes.
its weird... its not something i can explain easly ...and its not always about the gult ... its that disonace like the moment where i m so detached from my own exprince. like ill be in the shower with my dude ( para ) and the holy this is make me wet... but then ... it hits me ... not as a gult moment but as oh fuck im weird moment ... like why is this making me wet. and im there detached from that exprence. as in really breaking it down and thinking about how this is such a strange sensation and why are ppl devs ,,, so weird of them to be devs... and what does my dude really think of me being a dev ( even though we have talked about it over and pver again).
other times im so in it that i dont even know that im wet ... all i know is that im hearing or feeling his pain and dieing a lil for him ... and only after do i realise that im wet. and in that momet i feel so bad and disgusted at my self. cos what ... whyyy. and i cant explain that feeling ... you have to be in it ... its like seeing someone in a monet of true vonrabilty and then looking down to find that your turned on ...
to tell you the truth i dont get how wheelers dont get why i wouldnt feel gulty ... cant you put your self in my posision for one sec... so your with someone you love and she or he tells you something that they find hard to talk about that has hurt them so much ( lets say for argument sake they talk about being sexuly abused or hurt - and before you go off about how its so diffrent, im saying something tangable that ppl can realt to but yeah something that has cuased the other person pain) and at that monet you want to fuck them... that doesnt make you feel the slitest bad?
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Post by lavly on Mar 30, 2014 7:56:04 GMT -5
and there is more:
so about the disclosing ... i resented that too. so now im at a stage in my life that the ppl that matter in my life know that im a dev just from there power of deduction. not rocked sience. i have had 3 main bf in my life in chairs.
but why do i resent disclosing ? ... ok again i ask you to put your self in my place... think about a sextual kink you have ... now lets say that just becouse you chose a partner this will alow your loved ones to know your lil kink ( like your mum and dad ... granma, the mate you have beer with who doent know shit about you but still likes having that bear with you ) and that chosen kink is open to skruteny. so again for agruments sake you say you like to lick a bum hole ( or what ever it is that your into) now ppl ask you questions like "do you think its becose you feel like your incontrol when you lick that said bum hole?" and so on.
again thats not my imagenry world that my realty ( after 3 dudes in my real world) everyone feels its with in there right to ask ... and maybe it is ... but that one more of them many shit things about being a dev. ill never forget that condasending look and voice my boss had when she said do you want to talk about why you pick these types of men ... do you know your own worth ... and i cant punch her in the face she is my boss.
so after a few looks like that and coment like "do you really think you need to lick crack for you to know your own worth?" ... do you think you would injoy disclosing ?
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Post by kwhi on Mar 30, 2014 8:02:26 GMT -5
As a chair user I have never been with a woman that got off on the pain that's comes with my disability.
Most of my partners were with me for your typical garden variety reasons.
I have been with two devs (that I know of.)
These women got off on the way I am, not the physical and emotional pain that arises from the way I an. Only a sick and twisted person gets off on pain. I don't think devs get off on pain.
So wallow in your guilt or accept that you like what you like and free yourself..
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Post by lavly on Mar 30, 2014 8:13:41 GMT -5
ay yo how do you know? like i dont mean to be rude but i went back and told wheelers that i had been with in the past that i was a dev ... and they couldnt belive me ... cos i was so good at doing these ones " ummm i have never been with a guy with a disabilty ... " batter my eyes " does it hurt ? " so how do you know that the disclosed devs and the non disclosed devs didnt get off on your pain ? and as to your idea of sick an twisted , ummm did you know its the bigest money maker in the pron indestry ? so ummm ... yeah there would be a hell of alot of us . in that lil box ... cos the masses are made up of the norm. norm like you and me ... so wallow in your rightisonenss or expect that you might not know as much as you think you know ... ps welcome to the board
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Post by kwhi on Mar 30, 2014 8:38:43 GMT -5
I don't think devs are sick in any way! the women I met were great people. So maybe I have a small sample size.
I am saying there is a difference between having a turn on to a physical attribute and having a turn on to the negitice consequences that accrue as a result of that attribute.
If a dev finds pleasure in being with a disabled partner that is a wonderful healthy thing, at least in my mind.
Enjoying the physical and or psychological pain of others is quite another thing all together.
For the most part I believe devs are people with an interesting beautiful idea of physical appearance and sexual desirability . Like what you like!
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