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Post by darthoso on Mar 25, 2020 18:58:08 GMT -5
What the hell is this talk in the U.S. about older people sacrificing their lives for the economy? The Lieutenant Governor of Texas started saying it and now more idiots are saying it. And now, some in the media are saying it. ABSOLUTELY F*%&ing Crazy!!! That kind of talk is absolutely scary!! it's a catch 22. is it ok for thousands of people to lose their jobs, go homeless and hungry. because a couple thousand people in their 80's might die? these people are from the greatest generation. they were willing to sacrifice their lives for us before. I don't think it's that crazy that some of them are willing to do it again. 2/3rd+ of this board would be dead. Regarding the greatest generation, how weak is our generation that staying home with government supports (UBI combined with a rent/mortgage freeze) is too much to ask? My last grandparent, who's in a nursing home, lived through the Blitz in London. Every night when the bombers came my great grandfather had to leave because he was a Fire Watchman, leaving her home with my great grandmother who had a plan to kill her daughters if German Paratroopers landed. She was so terrorized she wrote an entire essay mirrored and didn't realize it. She then was an MP and Nurse for the RAF where she met my grandfather who was a tail gunner. Severe rationing was the norm for years after the war. Yes, this sucks, billions of lives are going to be up ended and it's going to last years in one form or another. But welcome to the overwhelming majority of human history. This period we've been in for the last 40 to 70 years, particularly in the west, is not normal. The harvest hasn't failed, Caesar's Legions haven't crossed the English Channel to burn down your village, the British Army isn't quartering troops in your house, and the Laftwaffe isn't circling overhead. Stay home, watch Netflix, cash your government check, that's all that's being asked. We can weather this without throwing lives of the most vulnerable away to make a spreadsheet balance out. ~800 people died in Italy yesterday, if that happens in the US, adjusted for population, that would be 4,800 dead daily. 33,600 dead in a week, 134,400 in a month if we don't get this under control.
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Post by wonk on Mar 25, 2020 19:18:29 GMT -5
it's a catch 22. is it ok for thousands of people to lose their jobs, go homeless and hungry. because a couple thousand people in their 80's might die? these people are from the greatest generation. they were willing to sacrifice their lives for us before. I don't think it's that crazy that some of them are willing to do it again. 2/3rd+ of this board would be dead. Regarding the greatest generation, how weak is our generation that staying home with government supports (UBI combined with a rent/mortgage freeze) is too much to ask? My last grandparent, who's in a nursing home, lived through the Blitz in London. Every night when the bombers came my great grandfather had to leave because he was a Fire Watchman, leaving her home with my great grandmother who had a plan to kill her daughters if German Paratroopers landed. She was so terrorized she wrote an entire essay mirrored and didn't realize it. She then was an MP and Nurse for the RAF where she met my grandfather who was a tail gunner. Severe rationing was the norm for years after the war. Yes, this sucks, billions of lives are going to be up ended and it's going to last years in one form or another. But welcome to the overwhelming majority of human history. This period we've been in for the last 40 to 70 years, particularly in the west, is not normal. The harvest hasn't failed, Caesar's Legions haven't crossed the English Channel to burn down your village, the British Army isn't quartering troops in your house, and the Laftwaffe isn't circling overhead. Stay home, watch Netflix, cash your government check, that's all that's being asked. We can weather this without throwing lives of the most vulnerable away to make a spreadsheet balance out. ~800 people died in Italy yesterday, if that happens in the US, adjusted for population, that would be 4,800 dead daily. 33,600 dead in a week, 134,400 in a month if we don't get this under control. Couldn't have said it better
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Post by devogirl on Mar 25, 2020 19:42:23 GMT -5
It's not a few thousand, it could be over a million dead, and it won't "just" be old people, it could be anyone at any age. Also all this talk of "sacrifice" is ridiculous because it won't work. The economy tanked because of the pandemic, and it won't recover until the pandemic ends. Forcing people back to work before any countermeasures are in place will give us the worst of both worlds, a recession and a huge death toll.
Other countries have flattened the curve through widespread testing and isolation of key populations. Lockdown of the entire country is a last desperate measure but it's not the only option, if more targeted action is taken first. But instead the US is bumbling on without a clear plan and trying to just wish the pandemic away.
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Post by SouthernCalGal on Mar 25, 2020 20:37:17 GMT -5
What the hell is this talk in the U.S. about older people sacrificing their lives for the economy? The Lieutenant Governor of Texas started saying it and now more idiots are saying it. And now, some in the media are saying it. ABSOLUTELY F*%&ing Crazy!!! That kind of talk is absolutely scary!! it's a catch 22. is it ok for thousands of people to lose their jobs, go homeless and hungry. because a couple thousand people in their 80's might die? these people are from the greatest generation. they were willing to sacrifice their lives for us before. I don't think it's that crazy that some of them are willing to do it again. The Lieutenant Governor of Texas and Glen Beck are not of that generation. And, their willing. The language and the thought is frightening in and of itself and exactly what devogirl said!!
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Post by Green on Mar 25, 2020 21:34:26 GMT -5
Doesn't matter what is going on in Italy too much, because they are doing something catastrophically wrong and failing worse than most countries.
Talking about older people sacrificing themselves is stupid narrative, a really bad way to put it. What is important to recognize that economic costs can be deadly in their own right, which would result in long-term negative consequences for healthcare itself. Too little too late. The people at highest risk could still shelter in place and be fine.
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Post by pam on Mar 25, 2020 21:46:46 GMT -5
I watched a discussion on German television last night and the experts said that there was no alternative to a long stop with only little go-phases inbetween, just so much that new infections will not overwhelm our health system. This should be kept up till a vaccine is found, probably next spring. Medications are all just now being tested and noone can say for sure if what works in a petri dish will work in a critically ill patient with multi-organ failure. The malaria medication that was quickly praised as the new remedy has actually killed several people who self-medicated as a precaution. One should also keep in mind that people who become so critically ill that they have to go in intensive care and on ventilators are usually ventilator-dependent at least a week, some 4 or 5 weeks. This creates new problems, as the risk for dementia after ventilation in older people increases dramatically. People will keep scarred lung tissue and be chronically ill afterwards, so this is an extra load on the health system. The people who "self medicated" I understand were taking a chemical made for an aquarium. Probably bought it at Walmart. That's not the same as medication prescribed by a doctor. I've seen some testimonies of people that believe these medicines probably saved their lives.
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Post by wonk on Mar 25, 2020 21:49:11 GMT -5
Doesn't matter what is going on in Italy too much, because they are doing something catastrophically wrong and failing worse than most countries. Talking about older people sacrificing themselves is stupid narrative, a really bad way to put it. What is important to recognize that economic costs can be deadly in their own right, which would result in long-term negative consequences for healthcare itself. Too little too late. The people at highest risk could still shelter in place and be fine. Obviously Spain is doing the exact same thing catastrophically wrong, 50,000 infections, 3400 dead including 656 deaths yesterday Not too mention all the other European countries that are on the exact same trajectory, just 1-2 weeks behind. Don't get me started on the USA. The catastrophe will start if Trump has everyone in Church at Easter holding hands and singing Kumbaya
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Post by darthoso on Mar 25, 2020 22:25:46 GMT -5
Doesn't matter what is going on in Italy too much, because they are doing something catastrophically wrong and failing worse than most countries. Talking about older people sacrificing themselves is stupid narrative, a really bad way to put it. What is important to recognize that economic costs can be deadly in their own right, which would result in long-term negative consequences for healthcare itself. Too little too late. The people at highest risk could still shelter in place and be fine. The long term economic effect does not have the potential to kill a 100,000+ a month. The economic impact, if governments get creative enough, can be mitigated. What can't be mitigated is if the healthcare system collapses from Corona virus and all other healthcare functions stop. Get into a car accident, too bad, all the hospitals are full so you're going to bleed out in the hall of the ER. The only sector of the economy actually being stressed from the virus in terms of limits on supply is healthcare. Food supply is still flowing, factory floor China is restarting, energy prices are dirt cheap, etc. If an airline goes under someone's going to buy their fleet and Amazon Airlines will be a thing.
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Post by Green on Mar 25, 2020 22:27:57 GMT -5
But South Korea isn't doing nearly as bad. They have had much better testing.
The death rate in Italy is a lot higher. Clearly they are doing something worse, despite even more rigid isolation and quarantining measures. And it's not because they've had the disease their longer. The thing that makes a difference is testing, not enhanced quarantining and isolation techniques.
It probably won't be a catastrophe if the people not at as high risk normalize their lives, and the people that actually are at highest risk take proper measures to protect themselves. And with better testing, it will be easier to decide if you are at risk, and what threat you might post others if you test positive.
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Post by someonerandom on Mar 25, 2020 22:32:08 GMT -5
Wonder why Manda deleted her post where she valiantly defended Trump in his press conferences talking about Easter.
Trump sounds like a fucking idiot every time he opens his mouth. Talking about “China virus” and the only reason he decided on Easter as a goal is because he just thinks it’s “beautiful”. I actually watched a reporter ask him what metrics he is using to decide when the country should “open up”, and Trump said: “We’re doing many great things, we’re doing things in many places”, before the ADULT Anthony Fauci came on and gave a fucking answer that was presidential and informative.
Trump is a god damn disgrace and an embarrassment. Anyone who defends him is a disgrace. I don’t care what nit picks you can find, at the end of the day you are defending a disgraceful piece of shit who has no idea what he is doing, and does not give a fuck about American lives. He just wants to get re-elected on a strong economy.
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Post by devogirl on Mar 25, 2020 22:38:02 GMT -5
Dude, I agree with you but I’m not going to let PD be overrun with political arguments especially about Trump. It will kill all other discussion and drive away people who want to participate on non political topics.
Everyone is super worked up and anxious right now but this board is not the best place for political rants.There are tons of other places on the internet for that. Also those of you who are sick of pandemic talk, please do start posting other things in other threads.
Nothing in this thread has crossed the line so far but just a general warning, if things get contentious I will lock it.
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Post by Green on Mar 25, 2020 22:41:32 GMT -5
The economic impact, if governments get creative enough, can be mitigated. What can't be mitigated is if the healthcare system collapses from Corona virus and all other healthcare functions stop. Get into a car accident, too bad, all the hospitals are full so you're going to bleed out in the hall of the ER. The only sector of the economy actually being stressed from the virus in terms of limits on supply is healthcare. Food supply is still flowing, factory floor China is restarting, energy prices are dirt cheap, etc. If an airline goes under someone's going to buy their fleet and Amazon Airlines will be a thing. You are thinking very short-term. For one, you are imagining the US failing as bad as Italy, and not even near the amount of deaths we should expect. Plus if there is great damage done to the economy, that will also affect healthcare. I don't even know how you can suggest that the only sector of the economy being stressed is healthcare.
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Post by darthoso on Mar 25, 2020 22:52:27 GMT -5
But South Korea isn't doing nearly as bad. They have had much better testing. The death rate in Italy is a lot higher. Clearly they are doing something worse, despite even more rigid isolation and quarantining measures. And it's not because they've had the disease their longer. The thing that makes a difference is testing, not enhanced quarantining and isolation techniques. It probably won't be a catastrophe if the people not at as high risk normalize their lives, and the people that actually are at highest risk take proper measures to protect themselves. And with better testing, it will be easier to decide if you are at risk, and what threat you might post others if you test positive. Testing is only effective in the early stages to contain the outbreak by reducing exponential growth, once you hit exponential growth testing simply becomes an intelligence source for the deployment and prestaging of resources and if it's over yet. As for high risk, they can't effectively isolate unless everyone does it too. My PCA attends community college, her husband works in a gun store, my niece is in high school, her parents work, etc.
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Post by Manda2212 on Mar 25, 2020 22:54:02 GMT -5
Wonder why Manda deleted her post where she valiantly defended Trump in his press conferences talking about Easter. Trump sounds like a fucking idiot every time he opens his mouth. Talking about “China virus” and the only reason he decided on Easter as a goal is because he just thinks it’s “beautiful”. I actually watched a reporter ask him what metrics he is using to decide when the country should “open up”, and Trump said: “We’re doing many great things, we’re doing things in many places”, before the ADULT Anthony Fauci came on and gave a fucking answer that was presidential and informative. Trump is a god damn disgrace and an embarrassment. Anyone who defends him is a disgrace. I don’t care what nit picks you can find, at the end of the day you are defending a disgraceful piece of shit who has no idea what he is doing, and does not give a fuck about American lives. He just wants to get re-elected on a strong economy. LOL, I deleted it because I don't want to deal with intolerant assholes like you and you just solidified that I made the right decision. Seriously dude, you're pathetically responding to a post I chose to delete after two minutes? This IS turning into WC part two. Learn to debate without being an insulting fuck.
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Post by wonk on Mar 25, 2020 22:56:56 GMT -5
But South Korea isn't doing nearly as bad. They have had much better testing. The death rate in Italy is a lot higher. Clearly they are doing something worse, despite even more rigid isolation and quarantining measures. And it's not because they've had the disease their longer. The thing that makes a difference is testing, not enhanced quarantining and isolation techniques. It probably won't be a catastrophe if the people not at as high risk normalize their lives, and the people that actually are at highest risk take proper measures to protect themselves. And with better testing, it will be easier to decide if you are at risk, and what threat you might post others if you test positive. I am sorry, but you clearly do not have a grasp of what is going on. Italy is no worse than at least half a dozen other European countries, it is just ahead of the curve. Also we are only just starting to see a plateuing of numbers in Italy from the decisions made 2-3 weeks ago. The overall incubation looks like it may be longer than we first though. Testing is good, very good, but South Korea really is an outlier, they had an almost single source of infection, and were able to track potential new infections, and test and lock them down. Take the US for example, the genie is already out of the bottle, almost every state has infections. Testing only goes so far, and with a long incubation period it is far from perfect. An antibody test will be great when that is reliable, as it will show who has already had it. Lots of testing without other strategies is going to do little apart from showing a lower death rate (due to less hidden cases). Italy is scrambling to keep it's citizens alive, and the health sector is being overwhelmed. Sure more testing would be great, but at this point where are the resources coming from? To say that the death rate in Italy " it's not because they've had the disease their (sic) longer" is ridiculous, every other country has seen what has happened and has been able to implement their strategies earlier in the cycle. Despite this many are in a worse position than Italy was at the corresponding time. Unfortunately for Italy it only had the bullshit that was being fed from China
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