(w)hole by Ruth Madison

[trinity]

My copy is arrived right now, I’m going to read. The book in the left hand, the dictionary in the right one.

From the back cover: “A young man wanting to be whole; a young woman certain she can never be”. Sad approach, SIG!

[anais]

darkie, thanks for PRing this book. I read the part that was on google and definetly going to order it.
Somehow I am convinced, the author simply can not not be a dev. What she describes does not require imagination, but being familiar with the experience, which is VERY recognizable.
The thing is not too well written, but is straightforward, honest and brave. Respect!
But than I tried to read it from a position of a person who is not a dev, and imagined, that it might have an effect of a brow raised. Highly raised. It is hard to believe that a non dev reader would find it interesting. In the best case scenario the average reader might find the protagonist bizzare. In a worse - psycho. I mean, I imagined myself reading a novel about, say, someone who has a kink for men who dress like old ladies, or for man who ride horses, or whatever and I think that I couldn't identify with the hero or somehow relate to the subject. What I am trying to say, is that the in my opinion the book is desighned for a very specific audience, for us devs. "Deviations" in others are mosltly interesting when they are coordinated with our own "deviations". Otherwise they are either anecdotal or strange.
But, I do think that the dev matter can find interest in non-dev population, but for that to happen, the subject in literature must be delt with more subtility and grace. I donno, may be the style should be different. The author obviousy identifies eith Elizabeth, but I would prefere the story to be written from first person POV. Otherwise there is an unexplicable distance from the main charachter, emotional one. I had the feeling she is telling about a case, not a real person.

[Pij02]

Oh my word! I dont know how the kind of Dev portrayed in this book could function. I have not seen this level of guilt and self-flagellation outside a Catholic church!

I still plan on reading the book, because I will obviously empathize somewhat with the main character and have an affinity for the subject matter. However, I will likely be exasperated through much of it! I must be the ONLY Dev in history who has never agonized, and tormented myself, over my devness. I must admit this notion that it is something dark and terrible, that has to be forcibly extracted from my person, is an extremely strange concept for me.

I have always been a Dev and I have always accepted that I was a Dev. It has never occurred to me that I would like to remove that portion of myself, or that I should obsessively agonize over it. If a magical Jeanie popped up right now and said that he would blink my devness out of existence I would tell him where he could shove his offer!

I realize that I am in the minority here. (I have read a lot of the old threads). However, I am still a little disappointed by this book (and I haven't even read it yet) because I would have (selfishly) liked the story to be told more from my perspective. Maybe the drama could have been the heroin railing against others misconceptions and misunderstandings of her. Maybe the drama could have been the disapproval of her love interest. There are a lot of ways the story could have went, in my opinion, other than making the lead a repressed and obsessively self-hating downer!

However, I will still read it, because how many dev-themed books are there to choose from? Maybe those quotes from the book were cherry-picked and I will be pleasantly suprised...

[shadow=red,left,300][glow=red,2,300]~Paige[/glow][/shadow]

[anais]

Pij02, I am with you No agony or guilt feelings and for no treasure on earth will I get rid of my devness.
Though I have to admit, that my parents don't know about my devness. But they are the only ones of my signifigant others It does probably say something about my acceptance of the issue, but than again, I never hid it, just that there was never any necessity or urge to tell them and therefore no conflict around the thing.
As abut the book, from what I have read, the guit is a serious chunk in the story, but not like it is the most importatnt thing. Also the heroin mentions, that she likes to be shown in public with the wheeler, so that the others wil think she is special She does not only feel guilt, is torn and flagelates hersef, she is... hm... ambivalent would be the correct word.

[helena2902]

I read the book a few weeks ago. And I agree with Anais. I think that a non dev reader might find it really strange. But when you can identify yourself with the protagonist than its really amazing!! And I also believe that the author must have SOME experience with devness, because she describes the feelings so exactly.
Even if I never felt really very much guilt because of my feelings I think I would be very embarrassed to talk about this book with non devs. So I'm glad i can talk about it here!!!

[Emma]

Nov 24, 2010 13:18:00 GMT -5 Pij02 said:

I must be the ONLY Dev in history who has never agonized, and tormented myself, over my devness.

I have always been a Dev and I have always accepted that I was a Dev. It has never occurred to me that I would like to remove that portion of myself, or that I should obsessively agonize over it. If a magical Jeanie popped up right now and said that he would blink my devness out of existence I would tell him where he could shove his offer!

[shadow=red,left,300][glow=red,2,300]~Paige[/glow][/shadow]

Paige you are not alone. I too have never agonized or tormented myself over being a dev

I think I will end up feeling the same way about the book.

[Cake]

"Agonized" and "tormented" are very strong words! I have never been either when it comes to my Dev-feelings.
For me, "wondering" and "doubting" are more applicable. And same as with you Paige, the Genie wouldn't have any luck taking away my devness. There has NEVER been a moment in my life when I wished it away. The instant I imagined myself without the devness, the prospect scared me. The devness is a part of me and I treasure it.


Strangely, I didn't take these passages in the book as as negative as you. The way I see it, the character isn't an unhappy person. But she's very young and in my opinion self-doubts and insecurities come with the territory at that age.
I was similar ten years ago. It's not that I was "agonizing" and "tormenting" myself over my devness, but I was definitely confused.


About Ruth Madison: In my opinion there is NO WAY anyone could write this without being a through-and-through Dev.
I wonder if she knows about this site. Maybe she's secretely a member or a lurker... Ruth Madison, if you're reading this: Hi!

[Emma]

Me neither I LOVE being a dev and no genie could take it away nor would I ever choose to go see a therapist who could "cure" me. Being a dev defines me in so many ways. Can't wait to get the book. And yes I agree maybe (hopefully) she is here. Hi Ruth

[anais]

Wanted to say something about therapy. I am in a therapy for some years now, not because of the devness But obviously the subject did come up, amd I told my therapist about my devness. Strangely enough she dismissed the subject. I mean, she was interested in what it was, and what did it mean to me, but never made any accentuation on it, nor tried any deep interrogation on the matter. She just accepted it as if it was a very common thing. In a way I was happy she didn't make a fuss over it, but In another way I was a bit disappointed. Not because I want it to be "cured", but because I want to find out more about it, it's origins, it's meanings for me, it's development, dinamics and so on.

[devogirl]

Having been raised Jewish, guilt is my constant companion. I feel guilty for everything, big and small, so devness is no exception, or at least it used to be. There have also been times where I wished I wasn't a dev. My life would definitely have been easier. I eventually got past the guilt and accepted myself as a dev, but it wasn't easy. Those of you who have never felt that way are lucky.

Also Anais, I know how you feel about the therapist. When I finally got up the courage to tell my friends, most of them were like "whatever, no big deal." On the one hand, that was the reaction I wanted--they didn't freak out or criticize me, but just accepted it. But on the other hand, I was like "It IS a big deal!" Still it's strange to me that a therapist wouldn't want to talk about it more.

[lavly]

lol anais .... i once told me counceler about being a dev and he started laughing ... and i mean really laugh ... so then i laughed and we both evend up rolling for a lil. its was ok ... but the next time i went to see him he had done resurch and was like "ummm the net say that your a dev cos you are scared of a real relasionship. you just have to work on what your scared of and the other stuff will go" so then we never talked about it again really cos i had to work on why i was scared ( im still lost about that ... i still dont think im scared).

and the not feeling guilty ... im with dev girl , if you dont feel it your so lucky. cos it doesnt matter how many times other ppl tell you dont feel gulty its a negative emotion or how much you even tell your self or more strongly the man your with tells you. its still hard to shake it off.

[devogirl]

Nov 27, 2010 14:11:35 GMT -5 lavly said:

but the next time i went to see him he had done resurch and was like "ummm the net say that your a dev cos you are scared of a real relasionship. you just have to work on what your scared of and the other stuff will go" so then we never talked about it again really cos i had to work on why i was scared ( im still lost about that ... i still dont think im scared).

OMG what a crap counselor! Seriously, he thought it was no problem when he talked to you directly, then he looked at the INTERNET and decided you had a problem? You could get that kind of BS from random strangers on the street for free.

I don't know you at all, but I really doubt you are a dev because you are scared of a real relationship. That's a dumbed-down version of Freud 101, that a fetish develops because you are avoiding "real" sex/relationship. But it's clearly so much more complicated than that. Your dev feelings will never go away ever, but it doesn't mean you're scared or that there's something wrong with you. Either tell him he's dead wrong, or if you do need to talk about your dev feelings, find a better therapist who knows more about non-standard sexuality.

[lavly]

Nov 27, 2010 14:29:39 GMT -5 devogirl said:

[OMG what a crap counselor! Seriously, he thought it was no problem when he talked to you directly, then he looked at the INTERNET and decided you had a problem? You could get that kind of BS from random strangers on the street for free.

lolllllllllll i know right! i droped him ... im not in counseling anymore... i m just working on myself by my self and see how i go

[anais]

lavly, it sounds like your therapist was very embarassed by your thing, or by his lack of knowledge on the issue.
In fact, I am still amazed, that the devotee subject doesn't have any decent research. Actually, not even undecent.
Personally, I don't think devoteeism has anything to do with fear. On this I agree with devogirl. But I do believe it has some psychological basis, which is probably different in most of us. And I am curious about it's origins, whatever they might be. Also, I don't think, as R. Madison does, that it is "programmed" or "wired" in us from birth. It must have some environmental basis, even though we might not remember it. It is not a trait of charachter, can not be, evolutionally it doesn't make any sense. We wouldn't survive, if we carried this trait genetically. For obvious reasons of natural selection Genetically speaking, being a dev is as promissing, as having lungs, while living in the ocean.
So there must be a "nurture" factor. We just sometimes are not aware of it.

[Cake]

Idk, anais, genetics doesn't automatically mean evolution-wise positive. Depression can be inherited genetically, or alcoholism, for instance. Also, genetics can change. So I think it is very well possible that we're "born" as a dev. The fact that it's not a plus when it comes to survival, doesn't mean anything, I think. Depression definitely isn't a plus when it comes to survival either...

LOL, and I have to agree on your therapist, lavly, how unprofessional is that!!
Yes, it is amazing, that the devoteeism isn't a subject in the psychology world at all.
My experience with therapy also tells me that MOST therapists don't feel comfortable talking about the sexuality of their patients in general. There are very few who aren't afraid of asking questions like "What do you fantasize about?", for instance.