Q for the guys

[Ouch]

Interesting conversation...I guess I don't know my wheeler brethren as well as I thought I did (at least from a Dev. POV). I had thought it would be the complete opposite...am I just an idealist...?

[BA]

Wind, I hope you don't interpret this as "knowing" your wheeler brethren. It isn't meant to be a blanket generalization. I am hoping that I am VERY wrong.

[Ouch]

I may have implied a scale that was non-specific...I meant very small in scale with what I've read.

[mrjefffurz]

i gotta vote with E,,,i pretty much avoid other cripsters (other than my lady pal w/ MS) cuz my perception is most are consumed by their dis or busy being "professional crips" and i prefer living life for all its worth...i can understand where ABsinthe is coming from, too, but i know quite a few online ppl that have chosen to do the long-term realtionship w/ child rearing, mutual support avenue,,,i did that myself for 18 years post-injury but, at my age, while i would embrace a exclusive relationship, my child raising years are behind me and i DO feel that i would be a burden on a woman if we were co-habitating...with the "roommates only" deal ive been doing the lady has the option to walk away w/o guilt or other baggage...i dont even want to hang this on my daughter cuz i have alot of years left and i will surely have more instances like the 2 year down turn im still into and ive seen the eyes of someone tired of my crip stuff & it would kill me to see that look in her eyes...oh,,,& i have 1 steadfast rule,,,a woman can be my "nurse" or my lover but she cant be both...

[Ouch]

That's why I said what I said...in my experience I haven't seen a situation like that...(excessive self-absorbtion) and hearing people agree has sort of shocked me...I hadn't perceived things that way...perhaps I'm not getting something...

[andyc251]

I dont really understand this "self-absorption" issue.

Do you mean guys who are absorbed in sorrow and misery at being in a wheelchair, like "my life is so crap and terrible, life is so hard, I'm a disabled".

I think those people are a very small minority.

I've only ever known one, maybe two people who were like that, both guys were newly injured and still coming to terms with the whole chair thing so I can forgive them a moment of doubtful pessimism.

But in general I have never met anyone in a wheelchair who seems self absorbed with their injury or disability in the way you suggest AB.

I know I tend to only come into contact with chair users who are more active and adventurous than the average guy in the street, but I still think that the "self-absorption" is a bad generalisation. Almost as bad as the "I CAN DO IT MYSELF!!!!" stereotype, or the angry wheeler who resents the world because he cant walk.

I understand how some people in wheelchairs can easily be accused of having low self-esteem, but I really dont think self-absorption is an accurate, or fair judgement.

[BA]

andyc251 said:

I dont really understand this "self-absorption" issue.

Do you mean guys who are absorbed in sorrow and misery at being in a wheelchair, like "my life is so crap and terrible, life is so hard, I'm a disabled".

No, Andy, I do not mean self-pity at all and I am not referring to anyone who is newly injured. What I am trying to describe is an overall way of life where a person becomes so absorbed in their own wants/needs/lifestyle/way of doing things that it becomes impossible to engage in any type of activity that involves being *self-less* (such as needed to raise children) or in making any type of changes that are always needed to accommodate another in a long-term committed relationship or a long term committed career or anything else that requires a person to go outside themselves and stay there for quite a long time. This attitude certainly does not only apply to men only or crips only and it has nothing to do with a person's level of activity. It is simply a state of mind and I am glad it doesn't apply to you. In my experience I have found that this state of mind is prevalent in crips of a "certain age". It may have more to do with age and being set in ones' ways than anything else. I don't know.



"But in general I have never met anyone in a wheelchair who seems self absorbed with their injury or disability in the way you suggest AB."

Did I actually suggest that Andy? If so, I apologize.

[matisse]

absinthe said:

I have found that this state of mind is prevalent in crips of a "certain age". It may have more to do with age and being set in ones' ways than anything else. I don't know.

Yeah after seeing you describe it further, I was also wondering if it's just an age thing.

[matisse]

And FWIW, it seems to me that the AB/crip relationship with kids may actually work best if the wheeler is working and the AB is not. The AB is going to have to shoulder all the physical stuff with the kids anyway, and when (not if) shit happens to the wheeler, the AB will have the flexibility to deal with it.

For example, I've had situations where I have landed in another city for work, and the airlines messed up my chair. My wife had to deal with it--packing my spare chair into her SUV and taking it to the airport so they could fly it out to me. If she was working full time this problem may not have been resolved in any timely or acceptable way.

[E]

You know, the more I ponder your post here, AB, the more confused I become.

The reason I said I avoid most gimps is because they're so "pro-gimp"... and I'm not.

However, what you're saying, I think, is that you may have ultimately ended up with an AB male because you wanted a family and you didn't think a crip could handle children -- not that they couldn't PHYSICALLY handle children, but that they "generally" ("a large percentage") don't have the maturity to be selfless and sacrifice for their children.

Please let me know if that's what you're actually saying and then I'll properly decide my response... which, hopefully, won't be "blasting you."

But it just might.

[Triassic]

or perhaps AB is thinking not so much in terms of STARTING a family, as a wheeler being less likely to consider an LTR w/a woman who already has a kid or two. lots of single moms out there, after all...

of course, there's theory and then there's how things really go down. i'm sure there have been PLENTY of dudes who say no,no, no to the idea of raising kids, but then oops, they meet a particular lady and they not only consider it but find themselves doing it.

that said, i'm not sure how not wanting a family automatically translates as 'self-absorption'. as cunning69 mentions; it may also be a matter of realizing that how one lives as a disabled man just doesnt jibe with what most would consider as acceptable. one doesn't want to inflict ones limitations and delays on another, perhaps...

[cunning69guy]

AB (and problemlover),

First off, sorry for attributing the original question to the wrong person (good question problemlover, I hope my answer was informative, it's certainly started a spirited dialogue in some ways!).

Second, AB, sorry if I perhaps unintentionally over-reinforced your real life dealings with wheelers and commitment issues. I have 2 very close friends who became quads almost a decade before I did. Both are leading very successful married lives, including one raising twin babies (IVF strikes again!...lol), besides both being less functional/independent than myself. One took the disability pension route, the other the workplace route. When I spoke, I spoke for myself alone (although, and I'm generalizing here, I believe the earlier the disability occurs, the more "socially" successful/functional the person is able to become in regards to employment, recreation, relationships and marriage).

Now, just to clarify my statement, as I said, I have been in committed (non-married) relationships before my disability, including full-time step-parenting. In my post, I say I'd welcome a (committed) relationship, I just don't expect one to happen for several reasons, the least of which is the older I get the less the opportunities, notwithstanding my "non-responsible" "single" lifestyle.

Now, although as time goes by I do tend to become "set in my ways" (or habits is a better term), I'm more than willing to change them and compromise for the pleasure that a relationship brings, as well as the headaches, as long as they are issues I'm physically able to compromise about.

As far as children and responsibility goes, as I've said, I've been there and done that pre-SCI. Step-parenting is a very hard yet rewarding thing to do. Indeed, establishing authority over and gaining respect from someone else's children is tough enough for an AB, never mind trying to get the respect from a wheelchair (kids realize your limitations and are not shy to exploit and abuse them, wheelchair or AB). I also feel that, in some ways, by not being the same step-parent to them that I used to be to my others that I would be cheating them from that experience and that perhaps they and their mom would be better served by someone else. I also realize that the love and support of someone in a wheelchair, despite any limitations the disability may bring to the relationship, can be far better than having no one, or worse, someone who is there but fails to give it. If the situation ever presents itself, it's obviously something everyone involved will have to discuss and decide.

As before my SCI, and even at my age, I would still like to have kids of my own, and several friends older than myself are having their 1st children by their new wives (either 1st or other). But I still remember the discussions with my ex-girlfriend about her anticipation of my parenting contributions to our expected child. In addition, I think about the shocked and scared looks on the faces of relatives whose infants I've held, worried that any second I will drop their squirming child. There will be no mid-night trips to the crib by me to check a crying infant, warm up a bottle of breast milk or formula to feed or change a diaper. I won't be able to pick up an infant, toddler or child on a regular basis without a potential catastrophic drop, the last thing I'd want for my child, and a total lack of help to a potential mate in parenting (never mind the inability to drop off or pick up a child at/from daycare, school, sports activities, etc. for the reason that I can't lift a child and work a child seat (now required until nearly double digit ages in many places dependent on the size of the child).

Lastly, with my own issues, as stated by others, I don't want to become a burden to my mate. I don't want to be an "extra" child, an extra responsibility for them or for them to become "my caretaker". Based on this rationale, I neither want to impose my limitations on a mate nor expect a mate to ever feel completely comfortable with them long-term as a relationship might require. Thus my pessimism about finding a woman for a relationship. It's not a "selfish" thing, it's reality. The selfish thing would be to not analyze these aspects of reality yet "expect" them. I don't.

Just to clarify my position, not attack your opinion/experience.

[charlene]

Very honest post, cunning69guy!

Thank you for sharing!

I was always scared when in a relation with a quad, that it might turn out the way you described.

While I really do wanna start a family some time in the future, I'm scared I might not make it.
My head tells me that I might not get enough support from a disabled husband.

That might not be true tho, but nevertheless it scares me.

[problemlover]

Wow A lot of info to process. I do get the feeling commitment is less imp to men in general. So what makes a relationship worthwhile if it's not commitment? A lot or a little...

[problemlover]

So Sova... you're saying you do avoid commitment? You know I never thought so many ppl would rather not commit. In all honesty I would've thought you'd want to commit. But hey...looks like I have wheelers figured out TOTALLY wrong. AB...I wish we could talk this big mess in my head over a few drinks . You seem to know exactly how I feel. Guess you have to live and learn.