Feelings on BIID

[ivyjames]

I saw it brought up in another thread and I was just wondering everyone's feelings on it. Let's try and be respectful. I don't want to be the new girl, causing fights.

[AlrightyAphrodite]

This is a tough issue and has been discussed a number of times on the board, before my time here but a friend helped me with the research. There are some interesting old threads but I agree it is time for a new discussion since the membership of the board is different.

Before the mods get started, I know that the rules of the board are that pretenders are welcome so long as they disclose their status in their avatars, and that the membership of the board is not going to change, and that if I have a problem with it I can take it to my own private Idaho, so on and so forth. I guess I want to clarify that I don't necessarily have an issue with BIID or pretending itself. it's something I don't know all that much about and unfortunately my limited experience with pretenders has been negative. As a member of a sexual minority which is occasionally demonized myself, I don't feel I have the right to point fingers at other people. I'm sure, as has been said in other threads, that the experience of having BIID must be difficult in a way I cannot totally comprehend. All that aside, while I don't have a problem with the kink/fetish/condition itself, I am...less than thrilled about the recent prevalence of pretenders on this board.

I understand that a certain part of the rationale for the board's policy is that the board will attract pretenders no matter what, and so it's better to encourage them to be open if they are going to be here anyway. I guess my issue with this policy is that asking a pretender to be honest strikes me as somewhat ironic, because as I understand it, the whole point of the kink is to convince people that you have a disability, to live as if you are, so at least for some pretenders, disclosure/admission is the opposite of what they're after. Although some of those folks will always be here, I don't know that that is a reason to encourage it. Why bait the tiger and then be disappointed when you find he has not changed his stripes?

I guess for me it is more of a wrong forum argument. I know there is a thread way back some where about the connection between BIID/pretending and devoteeism, but I personally see no such connection. There was a comment in another recent thread about how devs and pretenders have "lots in common", I disagree with this. I know that some devs pretended as children or whatnot, myself, I never did. It has always been a matter of attraction to another for me, and the concept of pretending is, to be honest, somewhat off-putting, but also just totally distinct from what makes me a dev. I appreciate that others might feel differently, but for me, the experience of someone with BIID seems so completely different from what makes me a dev that I find very little relevance in conversations about that topic. I guess I view posts by pretenders much like I would those by male devs. I don't have a problem with them, but I don't quite understand how they are connected to this forum, focused on female and gay devotees, and I sometimes feel like both communities would be better off if those posts were made on a forum specifically about pretending.

Honestly, my other issue about pretenders on the board is the fact that my experience, here on the board and personally, leads me to believe that the relationship between pretenders and devs is often predatory in nature. Part of me wonders why a pretender would choose come to this board, if his intentions are completely honorable, as opposed to a board focused on the issues of pretending or BIID. To be quite frank, if you were a pretender looking to get some attention or some kicks from someone interested in disability stuff, a dev makes a mighty fine target, and this board is basically fish in a barrel. That has happened over and over again here. I suppose that when I see comments posted like "it is better to be open about it (pretending) then attempting to pass as a para or a quad", as if attempting to pass is the other acceptable option (though it happens all the time), it kind of gets my dander up, and I'm just not inclined to jump on the welcome wagon. This certainly doesn't apply to all pretenders or BIIDers but it happens with amazing frequency. Again I understand that it can't be prevented, but that doesn't mean I have to encourage it. To me, this board is still pretty much the only game on the internet that is something of a safe space for female devs, many of whom are vulnerable when it comes to this aspect of their sexuality. It is my primary interest to preserve that sense of safety, and because pretenders often are deceitful and take advantage of unsuspecting devs, I am disinclined to encourage their membership here, in general. Of course not every pretender is a bad one, but I suppose for me, at this point in my dev journey, the bad apples have spoiled that bunch.

I know that a lot of people here, the guys especially, may have had shifting views on this issue and I would be interested to hear comments from them. I also don't know of any pretenders personally and as always, I am happy to be educated or corrected on issues I will admit I know little of.

[Deleted]

Sometimes when I have nothing nice to say it's better if I say nothing at all

[Emma]

I mostly agree with you AA however wanted to point one thing out that I have noticed. I think when it comes to the male gender being a dev and being a pretender are not two distinct things. Personally I know of three guys I met online as male devs who have since shared with me their interest in pretending. Two of them do so much pretending that they involve friends and significant others in the activity. I think the line between the two is more distinct with females. I don't actually know of any female devs who actively pretend although I'm sure there are women out there who fall into the category.

Anyway I'm not ready to fully answer your question ivyjames but in general if they disclose that they have BIID or that they enjoy pretending I have no issue. I'm less inclined to read posts by the guys here who disclose that they have BIID but there are many other people here who are either devs or disabled guys whose posts I ignore. On the other hand I absolutely hate fucking fakers. I have been duped big time several times and have many dev friends who have as well. Honestly, I think its the worst part of being a dev. There are many fakes here on PD who don't have it disclosed on their profile - all devs here need to be aware of that. Oh and just to be clear I use the term fake to define anyone who pretends to have a disability and doesn't share that they actually aren't physically disabled with the person they are talking to- it doesn't matter to me if they identify as having BIID or not.

[darthoso]

Jan 28, 2014 0:43:44 GMT -5 James said:

Sometimes when I have nothing nice to say it's better if I say nothing at all

This.

That being said I'm not gonna go out of my way to judge what's going on in their head. Like anything there are 3 aspects to it, how does it impact them, how does it impact others, how does it impact society.

Like AA said its a catch 22 for them, they disclose the devs get suspicious and the dis shit on them. They don't, we got bigger issues.

Regarding their interaction with devs I can see that as being negative, or positive so long as both sides are honest. I think it was in the cure thread someone mentioned they wouldn't mind if a cure was developed so long as they pretended in bed. A BIID and a dev could avoid a lot of the health and care issues us wheelers deal with that I know some devs aren't cool with (which is completely understandable). Maybe I'm wrong I feel weird talking about devs and BIIDs, in my mind its like guys talking about abortion, its not a topic I'm qualified to discuss. I don't think BIIDs directly impact wheelers beyond making us scratch our heads.

Impact on society is another thing and its more of economic issue. Those with disabilities have to fight for extremely limited resources. Handicap parking, government benefits, insurance companies, etc. Again, I'm not gonna judge what's up in someone's head but I don't think its fair for BIIDs to use those resources. Even using a wheelchair I'm uncomfortable with, I donate my old chairs to charity because someone in need could use it.

More broadly I think BIID is where the line needs to be drawn in terms of disabilities, the term "disabled" has grown too broad in my opinion. A mental disorder where you need to pretend to be disabled therefore you're disabled is too much. Again, I'm not saying what's going on in their head isn't real.

[AlrightyAphrodite]

Jan 28, 2014 1:47:16 GMT -5 darthoso said:

in the cure thread someone mentioned they wouldn't mind if a cure was developed so long as they pretended in bed. A BIID and a dev could avoid a lot of the health and care issues us wheelers deal with that I know some devs aren't cool with (which is completely understandable). Maybe I'm wrong I feel weird talking about devs and BIIDs, in my mind its like guys talking about abortion, its not a topic I'm qualified to discuss. I don't think BIIDs directly impact wheelers beyond making us scratch our heads.

This brings up an interesting point. I don't believe I would ever be interested in being with a pretender. I am not so much into the apparatuses and the stuff that turns me on, you just can't fake. If I can't be with a disabled guy, I'd rather enjoy the particular benefits of AB sex (they do exist...) and save the dev stuff for fantasy. That said, I wonder what the other devs might say. I know this has been discussed in the context of pretending with your AB SO. Girls, do you think you'd be into being with someone who's pretending?

[Maurine]

That's really funny, Ivy, I was going to start the exact same thread!



I wouldn't like to be with a pretender. For me the disability has to be real and the story of how someone acquired their disability is part of the attraction. My devness is much more complex than just an attraction to someone sitting in a wheelchair who does not move certain parts of his body. I love how my boyfriend does things that are difficult for him and how his body functions slowly improve. I know it's kind of contradictory for a pretender to reveal to a dev that he's able-bodied but you have to do so. In my opinion, when you're in a sexual relationship, the partner deserves to know such things. It's the same reason why I told my boyfriend about my devness right away.


In my case however, there are links between pretending and devness. I have never done so in public and I don't think I could but I think I sort of comprehend having BIID. You're turned on by disability but not in others but in yourself. I think it might be similar feelings caused by different sorts of contact with disability. When you fantasise about disabled people, why can't you be disabled yourself?

My question to those with BIID: How does it feel when you're in a wheelchair interacting with other people and occasionally being helped climbing stairs or getting things you can't reach without standing up? Is it sexually arousing? Is BIID like a form of sexuality or does it not necessarily have to be connected to sexual feelings?


My boyfriend once met someone with BIID in person. He didn't know he wasn't really disabled at first and didn't suspect anything. The guy told him he was a para and they talked about SCI-related stuff like cathing. On his Facebook profile there were photos of him being carried up stairs by his friends.
When my boyfriend contacted him on Facebook the next time, he admitted he wasn't disabled at all. My boyfriend is tolerant towards people who treat him differently because of his disability, he says their intentions are good. He's also tolerant of BIID. If someone spends a large amount of money on a wheelchair and pretends so consequently IRL, he has respect for that person.

[ivyjames]

I really appreciate everyone's responses! Thank you all.

I'm kind of neutral to BIID/ pretenders but I would have to be honest and say I don't really understand or respect what they are doing. I do though, understand the fact that everyone wants different things in life, but I don't understand the "want" to be disabled.

I've spoken to my quadriplegic boyfriend about this and he is VERY against it. He has accepted his disability and had learned to live with it, but I know if he had the chance, just like most other disabled people, would choose to be AB again. I think he's looking from the stand point of "why would you ever want this?" What do you men think about this? Do you have any other views?

When I try to compare it in my head, I don't associate it with devness even though they are similar. I compare it transsexualism. You are living in a body that is not your own, and you feel like you don't belong in. I can understand that greatly, but I do feel like it can hurt others (BIID). I know my boyfriend is irked by it, but that might be just because of not understanding. How do those of you with BIID explain it? Are my thoughts even close to how you feel?

[mike]

My feelings on the matter are this: 1. Just like homosexuals, I don't think people have a choice in the matter, so on that point I really don't care one way or another. 2. Honesty is paramount though, and is a choice people consciously make, so lying about it is not OK with me. That is tempered a little bit though, because its easy to understand their trepidation about revealing the issue, which is quite similar to what many devs go through. 3. When they do stuff like parking in disabled spots, that falls into the dishonesty category, and is definitely not OK. 4. Making up elaborate stories about their "disability" is downright irritating. If someone has BIID and simply doesn't say anything about their "disability", why would I care? Its easy to understand why a dev would care, and why a dev would be troubled about the issue, but I'm not a dev, so those things aren't personally bothersome. If I knew someone was making stuff up trying to create a relationship with a dev, I would quite likely get pissed, but then it isn't clear what an appropriate reaction might be.

[kivic]

Honesty in any relationship is good ground to build on, so if you're honest about your pretending/faking/BIID then there should really be no issue. On the other hand, if you intentionally deceive someone or many with your pretending, in my opinion, you are living a false/fantasy-filled life. It is one thing to pretend at home or with your partner, but to bring it onto the world to intentionally deceive undermines the trust in relationships and simply in humanity.

I don't know enough about what is involved with people with BIID, it seems rather complex, but pretending and then to lie about it is different than someone with BIID (or so I believe). 

[greenbean]

I feel similarly about people with BIID and people who feel they were 'assigned' the wrong gender. It must really fucking suck to live life uncomfortable in your body. I will never claim to understand it, but I think we should accept people for who they are.

Obviously it does not excuse bad behavior (on the net, irl, whatever, I haven't had personal experiences but I've read posts on this thread an over the years).

Also, I am fucking weird. I can make yah a list if your interested, and I know everyone's special, but I understand that deep down feeling of not belonging and of hating who you are, and I think that if I was in the position of someone with BIID these feelings would be even more pervasive.

[darthoso]

Jan 29, 2014 1:55:41 GMT -5 greenbean said:

I feel similarly about people with BIID and people who feel they were 'assigned' the wrong gender. It must really fucking suck to live life uncomfortable in your body. I will never claim to understand it, but I think we should accept people for who they are.

Obviously it does not excuse bad behavior (on the net, irl, whatever, I haven't had personal experiences but I've read posts on this thread an over the years).

Also, I am fucking weird. I can make yah a list if your interested, and I know everyone's special, but I understand that deep down feeling of not belonging and of hating who you are, and I think that if I was in the position of someone with BIID these feelings would be even more pervasive.

I completely understand where you're coming from in regards to it being difficult to deal with and we've all got inner demons. I think what we're saying is how BIIDS deal with that is the issue. For example I've got a very good friend who is a untreated alcoholic. I do believe alcoholism is a disease and I know he has a hard time functioning without booze. That being said the right way for him to deal with that isn't to down a 5th of vodka before driving to work in the morning and potentially killing someone. If he wants to drink himself to death at home, I love him but that's on him.

I know BIID and alcoholism isn't in the same ball park in terms of dangers to society but if an AB wants to roll around his house all day, whatever. They roll "outside" (irl or online) and its a different story.

I disagree with BB though, for me its not jealousy, its that they, without realizing it maybe, are taking advantage of a stranger's willingness to be helpful. When I'm on my own I do to an extent rely on the kindness of strangers when things go wrong. I went to a party once that was in an inaccessible part of a military bar, before I could even react a Master Sergeant ordered 4 of his marines to pick my ass up the stairs. I've dropped keys in the middle of the street and a random girl run up and grabbed them for me without even asking. Its taken me a long time to be comfortable asking random strangers for help and I'm surprised every time how helpful people are willing to be. How dare anyone take advantage of that.

[greenbean]

Jan 29, 2014 2:36:16 GMT -5 darthoso said:

Jan 29, 2014 1:55:41 GMT -5 greenbean said:

I feel similarly about people with BIID and people who feel they were 'assigned' the wrong gender. It must really fucking suck to live life uncomfortable in your body. I will never claim to understand it, but I think we should accept people for who they are.

Obviously it does not excuse bad behavior (on the net, irl, whatever, I haven't had personal experiences but I've read posts on this thread an over the years).

Also, I am fucking weird. I can make yah a list if your interested, and I know everyone's special, but I understand that deep down feeling of not belonging and of hating who you are, and I think that if I was in the position of someone with BIID these feelings would be even more pervasive.

I completely understand where you're coming from in regards to it being difficult to deal with and we've all got inner demons. I think what we're saying is how BIIDS deal with that is the issue. For example I've got a very good friend who is a untreated alcoholic. I do believe alcoholism is a disease and I know he has a hard time functioning without booze. That being said the right way for him to deal with that isn't to down a 5th of vodka before driving to work in the morning and potentially killing someone. If he wants to drink himself to death at home, I love him but that's on him.

I know BIID and alcoholism isn't in the same ball park in terms of dangers to society but if an AB wants to roll around his house all day, whatever. They roll "outside" (irl or online) and its a different story.

I disagree with BB though, for me its not jealousy, its that they, without realizing it maybe, are taking advantage of a stranger's willingness to be helpful. When I'm on my own I do to an extent rely on the kindness of strangers when things go wrong. I went to a party once that was in an inaccessible part of a military bar, before I could even react a Master Sergeant ordered 4 of his marines to pick my ass up the stairs. I've dropped keys in the middle of the street and a random girl run up and grabbed them for me without even asking. Its taken me a long time to be comfortable asking random strangers for help and I'm surprised every time how helpful people are willing to be. How dare anyone take advantage of that.

I absolutely agree that it's not the person that's the problem, but the behaviors (but 'member, the question simply asked how we feel about them!).

Also, I was not a super self accepting dev. I spent years self harming before I went to see a psychologist to talk about being a dev (ugh, sorry to turn this into a personal pity party, but I feel the need to clarify what I meant by 'feeling I don't belong'). Since seeing someone I have started allowing myself to be a dev (aka who I am) and I have mostly stopped my own negative behaviors. Obviously brainzz are complicated and I don't think I did that stuff all because of my devness (ya'll aren't that bad !) but I definitely had a very hard time dealing with the sense of otherness. Since reaching a certain level of self acceptance i have been doing so much better in terms of sh. I feel like for a BIID person, they may never feel that level of self acceptance unless they act out on their desires to be disabled (because they feel that is who they are), and that is mostly why i feel conflicted.

Then again, therapy worked wonders for me and I feel at least moderately fulfilled on fantasies, so I would be all for a BIID person wheeling around the house/in private and being their able bodied self in the real world. And yah, I liked your analogy, no arguments there.

Any BIID people who are struggling, go to a psychologist who specializes in sexuality, if you find the right one it will be really fuckin rad, trust.

[Peony]

Such an interesting thread.

I too am pretty neutral about BIIDers, and think they often get incorrectly lumped with the devs/pretenders/wannabes who are especially sexually aggressive, and fairly dehumanising in their attraction (i.e much more about wheelchair/crutch/brace fetishes than being attracted than someone who is also disabled). I've never knowingly met anyone who claims to have BIID, or any pretenders etc, but the subject fascinates me, so I've read quite a bit about it. I think the people who have it are truly f*cked in a sense, as like anyone who is transgendered, they are simply in the wrong body, and suffer a myriad of negative psychological and emotional consequences. No right minded doctor will cut anything healthy, so they are left with very little options on how to live their life happily.

Of course, though, my less logical side really struggles to come to grips with it, and I feel like if they were to actually be disabled, they would probably swiftly change their mind, as I'm fairly sure pretending to be isn't even a dry husk of what it's like to live with it everyday. I think there's also a natural repulsion towards someone that wants to inflict that level of harm on themselves, as well a creeping feeling that there must be some kind of dependance/attention issues too. That said, a lot of stuff written about it seems very lucid and articulate, and a lot of people seem to evaluate and address those issue quite early on in their whole 'process'.

There is of course the deceptive aspect of it..in my mind the biggest practical problem that that presents is taking away limited resources from people who have no control over whether they're disabled or not. But I think that's more a function of governments and communities not putting enough money and resources into disability services as opposed to what is probably less than 1000 people worldwide who chose to be disabled. I imagine there'd be a lot of health stuff they don't even use anyway because they are fine other than the elephant in the room. Relationships are a different kettle of fish, though and something that big has to be disclosed early on. The taboos around it are crazy though, so part of me can understand the hesitation, too. I think if I wasn't AB I would feel violently different about it though.

So long as they act with integrity about it, I have nothing but empathy for them, actually. I kind of picture all pretenders as quite creepy (sorry), but provided they weren't, I don't think I'd have a problem being with a pretender...so long as it was done in private (...could be quite odd in reality though...I can imagine feeling kind of...dirty about it after the fact!).

Anyway, just my thoughts and feelings, hope y'all don't hate me for it!

[devogirl]

BIID is a mental illness. It's not a fetish or sexual preference (like pretending). The research on it so far indicates that it's a body mapping disorder, similar to being transgender--the brain has an image of what the body should be that doesn't match up with the body you have. People BIID don't choose to feel that way, it seems to be hardwired. The desire is usually for one very specific disability, which also indicates that it's a mapping disorder.

I have sympathy for people with BIID. It causes a tremendous amount of psychological pain, and there is no cure or treatment that has been found effective. Psychoanalysis, counseling or drug treatment does not seem to work. There used to be some very good websites with info on BIID but they seem to be gone now. There is some information here if you are curious:
www.experienceproject.com/stories/Have-Body-Integrity-Identity-Disorder/1531938
www.squidoo.com/transabled

I think it is a valid concern that a person with BIID might be taking up scarce resources like parking spots. That really depends on the person; I have known people with BIID who were very careful to avoid doing that. Or so they said, I didn't follow them around to check. Anyway I understand why people with real disabilities get angry at the concept of BIID but having BIID isn't a choice or something you can just get over. Lots of PWDs hate devs for the same reasons, and we can't change how we are either.