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Post by mike on Aug 22, 2014 10:27:18 GMT -5
Inigo,
I agree with your thoughtful post. It triggers feelings of compassion when you consider the degree of emotional distress one must experience before voluntary amputation (or other forms of self-harm) seems like an attractive alternative. Especially when you consider that, for them, there is nothing else on the horizon that will relieve their distress.
In a way it's like suicide, for the person contemplating it, what must be their level of emotional pain? It's easy to dismiss people with emotional problems, until you consider that it's not volitional, and any of us could find ourselves in a similar state.
Likewise, when medical personnel note a patient has emotional problems, there is a tendency to dismiss their physical complaints, which suggests that someone with emotional issues cannot also have real physical pain.
Inigo, when you mention cutting or weight problems, those are also issues wherein there is a tendency for people to suggest it's deliberate, when clearly it's not.
As a society we're weird in many ways, and one of them is a tendency to be overly judgmental. As an example, nobody today would make fun of someone with a physical disability, but if the person is stupid that's OK to ridicule - as if the person chose to be stupid.
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Post by matisse on Aug 22, 2014 16:00:08 GMT -5
I was reacting to Tony's list of problems that come with SCI. I used anorexia because it's another disease that people generally think should be easy to cure... "Just have a snack! Eat something for God's sake." etc. Because, of course, there is no way for someone with BIID to know that their needed injury comes with those things. It's not like they can find SCI support sites on teh webs, or anything. And it's not like (as far as I've read) they wake up one morning and decide to climb into a wheelchair like they pick which pants to wear. I don't think the attempted analogy with anorexia works. A key difference (among others) is that those with anorexia are actually experiencing all the detriments of their condition, and yet they still have the compulsion. BIID folks can read all they want, but reading is not experiencing, especially when it comes to things like having sores that require hospitalization. And from what I recall reading the other times BIID was discussed here, for the things they *can* experience, they are still making the choice many times over that their BIID is not outweighed by convenience. If a BIID person has sudden diarrhea, and the PWD toilet is taken or they can't get on it quick enough, do they crap in their pants? Similarly, I recall mentions of procedures to get SCI done for $25k or so, but a BIID person can't "afford it." In that price range, "afford" is the right word and indicates a choice and weighing of the cost/benefit vs. the compulsion. And then of course there's the risk. Surgery could go wrong, and they might be a C-something instead of a T-12. That's rightfully scary, and again indicates a weighing of the benefits and risks to the BIID person vs. the compulsion. This also squares with the fact that there are actually some BIID amps, right? Amputation is a long-standard procedure, and being an amp has a whole lot fewer side effect and risks than SCI. By contrast, while the BIID person is weighing all these downsides to *them*, they (or at least some) suddenly can't help themselves and it's a 100% compulsion when the person they are affecting is not them, but ME, an actual wheeler. Sorry but that just seems like selfishness. And, as far as self harm and forcing society to take care of them... there are dudes here who are paraplegic, quadriplegic or amputees because of unintentional self harm. An injury from one's actions... driving drunk, drunken motorcycle shenanigans, other risky activities (there are a bazillion diving accident quads... very preventable if you go into the water feet first) could be seen to qualify. Not only did someone driving under the influence cause his/her own injury, they endangered others. Same thing for crazy and/or drunken motorcycle shenanigans. Should we not take care of them? What about the person who's injured during a suicide attempt? For that matter, when I suffer foot pain from wearing pretty but unsupportive shoes, isn't that self harm? Should my insurance not cover that trip I made to the podiatrist? Lots of people consider my weight problem a form of self harm. As with anorexia I think you are trying to push the analogy too far in one direction; this is not like a scientific theory that you can test by having it work in the extreme at both ends. A logical conclusion of your argument, on the other extreme, is that because of our genetic programming we are all "compelled" to do what we end up doing, regardless of the consequences, and thus none of us are accountable for anything and everyone else should pay for everyone else's actions. Accountability has to start somewhere. Society tries to deal with that by imposing penalties--if you drunk drive and kill someone, you go to jail. If you are a smoker, your insurance rates go up. What if the penalty for getting a placard by pretending was $10,000? Would the BIID person still try to get it? What if they could only pretend if they had to wear a sign saying so? Would the negative reaction of other people be greater than the compulsion? The only penalty for an AB taking my stall is guilt and shame. Both of those are gone with the BIID person, they care about themselves more than me. It's sadly ironic. If BIID folks really are all ABs trapped in wheeler's bodies, they should be the the ones who most stridently NEVER do these things and shame the ABs who do, they should be the ones who respect our limitations the most.
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Post by Inigo Montoya on Aug 22, 2014 19:41:23 GMT -5
I think a fundamental difference between what I think when I'm thinking of BIID and discussing it and what everyone else seems to think of when discussing BIID is that y'all (many of you?)automatically think they're pretenders. They're not. There are plenty who go about their lives WALKING and not taking up any additional resources whatsoever. I don't know of any research to decide numbers. But not every SCI BIID person is wheeling around. Not at all. It seems that, for the sake of argument, and because of the pictures that are posted that *here* BIID automatically equals pretender. I'm not a huge fan of pretenders... in any shape, form or fashion. I should've made that clearer... I'm not defending pretending... even BIID pretending. (I think there are some BIID pretenders who don't use HC spots or stalls, though. Pretty sure. Not really talked to any individually, though...) I don't think the attempted analogy with anorexia works. A key difference (among others) is that those with anorexia are actually experiencing all the detriments of their condition, and yet they still have the compulsion. BIID folks can read all they want, but reading is not experiencing, especially when it comes to things like having sores that require hospitalization. And from what I recall reading the other times BIID was discussed here, for the things they *can* experience, they are still making the choice many times over that their BIID is not outweighed by convenience. If a BIID person has sudden diarrhea, and the PWD toilet is taken or they can't get on it quick enough, do they crap in their pants? I'll give you that the anorexia analogy wasn't a good one, physically. But I think it's not bad for the point that I wanted to make with it which is that compulsions are complicated and not curable with a few quick, flip statements. And, no, reading is not experiencing. Like the parenthood/infertility analogy, you can prepare yourself all you want but preparation is not living it. As someone who wanted to be a parent badly, I was well aware of the "negatives" but it definitely didn't kill my need to have a baby. And that statement is true for a million different things that people want in life... you never really, fully know until you're actually knee deep in it. As for the diarrhea bit... I can't answer that. Again, the person with BIID whom I knew best wouldn't be using the PWD toilet at all. To me BIID and pretending are separate things. Some may use pretending to "relieve" their symptoms, but idk... again, I'm not sure whether that's a lot of them or a few. Similarly, I recall mentions of procedures to get SCI done for $25k or so, but a BIID person can't "afford it." In that price range, "afford" is the right word and indicates a choice and weighing of the cost/benefit vs. the compulsion. And then of course there's the risk. Surgery could go wrong, and they might be a C-something instead of a T-12. That's rightfully scary, and again indicates a weighing of the benefits and risks to the BIID person vs. the compulsion. This also squares with the fact that there are actually some BIID amps, right? Amputation is a long-standard procedure, and being an amp has a whole lot fewer side effect and risks than SCI. Can you give me that surgeon's information? I had considered that an urban legend. I don't know of any surgeons who will sever a healthy spinal cord. (I've not done any in depth searching but I thought he had.) I think I vaguely remember a surgeon in Scotland(? maybe? or Somewhere similar?) who did a couple of BIID amputations before being reprimanded (and possibly having his license taken?). For my friend, there are a couple of reasons that he won't try self inflicted SCI. One is finding someone to help and a huge one is his fear of ending up incomplete. He's afraid that if the injury winds up something that he doesn't 'feel' is the right one then he might not get relief, which I think is fairly legit. In conversation, I would push him about that stuff... what if you wound up this level instead... he actually had a range that he thought he'd be ok with. It was low, in huge part, because of the lack of spasticity that lower injuries have. He very much saw himself with the super skinny legs of a low para. I've poked about these issues. A lot. All our conversations weren't me offering empathy. I think if he knew that there was a legit surgeon that he could give $25 grand to and get what he needed he'd start saving and doing what he had to to get the money ASAP. There are lots of trans peeps who can't afford reassignment surgery. Do you consider their compulsion less legit because of cost/benefit analysis? I stopped trying to have a baby because my resources ran out (and some VERY legit medical reasons that I wasn't getting pregnant). I've recently had some hard, painful conversations with mothers who adopted their children and who seem to think that if I *REALLY* wanted to have a child that I'd follow their path. There are plenty of people who assume that if I *REALLY* wanted to be a parent then I should be doing this, or that, or something else. (Instead of my anti-depressants, therapy, etc.) By contrast, while the BIID person is weighing all these downsides to *them*, they (or at least some) suddenly can't help themselves and it's a 100% compulsion when the person they are affecting is not them, but ME, an actual wheeler. Sorry but that just seems like selfishness. Don't we all kind of tend toward selfishness this way? Our predicaments, whatever they are, are generally a the forefront of our minds with everyone else's taking a back seat? As with anorexia I think you are trying to push the analogy too far in one direction; this is not like a scientific theory that you can test by having it work in the extreme at both ends. A logical conclusion of your argument, on the other extreme, is that because of our genetic programming we are all "compelled" to do what we end up doing, regardless of the consequences, and thus none of us are accountable for anything and everyone else should pay for everyone else's actions. Accountability has to start somewhere. Society tries to deal with that by imposing penalties--if you drunk drive and kill someone, you go to jail. If you are a smoker, your insurance rates go up. What if the penalty for getting a placard by pretending was $10,000? Would the BIID person still try to get it? What if they could only pretend if they had to wear a sign saying so? Would the negative reaction of other people be greater than the compulsion? I wish I felt that way in my own life. Not accountable for anything. I don't know the answers to your questions. Again, to me BIID and pretending are two different things, related but not the same. In the paragraph you quoted, I was thinking of BIID peeps potentially successful in attaining their "needed" disability, not pretenders. (I keep re-reading your paragraph thinking... "Hmmm, not where I meant for it to go, but interesting...) So, yes, society imposes penalties and I'm not saying that society shouldn't. But I am asking how much weight should be given to the origin of an injury. How much accountability should be imposed on those who are responsible for their SCI or amputation? matisse, you are a huge proponent of accountability... do YOU think that someone who was responsible for their own accident, even if inadvertently, should receive different treatment and or benefits? And I'm not talking about BIID peeps... mike, in his response to me mentioned the pain of people who commit suicide. So, I'll share how I came, round about, to this line of thinking. I worked in an emergency room for years. We had people who were chronic suicide attempters. They were people who used suicide attempts to manipulate their families and friends. Occasionally, they'll fuck up an attempt and actually die. So, I had a hard, hard attitude toward people who committed suicide. Then, the EMTs brought in the body of a woman who had shot herself in the chest. Successful suicide. They told me that she had gone to the bank of a creek, --a very pretty spot-- spread out a blanket, lay the pictures of her children around her, placed some of her favorite music in the cd player and killed herself. I had a realization. Someone doesn't place the pictures of their children around if they think they're about to do something that will forever cause them psychological harm. This lady was in THAT MUCH PAIN that she really believed that her family and friends would be better off without her. So, I guess what I'm trying to get across is that there's different types of pain. Today, I'm not feeling like judging which type is more legit. I may totally feel like judging that tomorrow. But the fact is that I can't compare and contrast different pain. Our pain is our own and we can't feel others' to make the comparisons that we'd like to, because we're human and comparison is both compulsive, fun and damaging. I should probably make clear that I'm not suggesting that a person is NOT at all responsible for their own pain. But, I know plenty of people who believe that people who have mental illnesses should just pull themselves up by their bootstraps and get over it. Whether it's depression, bi-polar disorder, PTSD or whatever. Mental illness is considered far less legit than physical illness, by lots and lots of people. I'm not suggesting that people NOT get treatment. But I'm also not imagining that mental illness is easily fixed. You don't attend a few counseling sessions to cure your schizophrenia, so why imagine that someone can just be counseled out of BIID? If mental illness was simple or easily cured, then we'd have far fewer homeless. The only penalty for an AB taking my stall is guilt and shame. Both of those are gone with the BIID person, they care about themselves more than me. It's sadly ironic. If BIID folks really are all ABs trapped in wheeler's bodies, they should be the the ones who most stridently NEVER do these things and shame the ABs who do, they should be the ones who respect our limitations the most. I'm going to totally agree with the last part. Wholeheartedly. Yes, peeps with BIID should be the ones who respect your limitations the most.
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Post by matisse on Aug 22, 2014 20:20:01 GMT -5
I'm not a huge fan of pretenders... in any shape, form or fashion. I should've made that clearer... I'm not defending pretending... even BIID pretending. (I think there are some BIID pretenders who don't use HC spots or stalls, though. Pretty sure. Not really talked to any individually, though...) Whooops.....for some reason I thought you were not only ok with pretending, but also with them taking up my parking spots, stalls, etc. But if you still want me to read and respond to the rest of your response to me, I will...... ;-)
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Post by Inigo Montoya on Aug 22, 2014 20:31:47 GMT -5
I'm not a huge fan of pretenders... in any shape, form or fashion. I should've made that clearer... I'm not defending pretending... even BIID pretending. (I think there are some BIID pretenders who don't use HC spots or stalls, though. Pretty sure. Not really talked to any individually, though...) Whooops.....for some reason I thought you were not only ok with pretending, but also with them taking up my parking spots, stalls, etc. But if you still want me to read and respond to the rest of your response to me, I will...... ;-) No. Not really... to me it IS a public lie. And, I've been nailed by too many internet pretenders (to the point that I consider a dude met here to BE a pretender until proven otherwise) to love the practice. Honesty is a big thing to me. I know there are ways to justify pretending to yourself, but still... You can respond if you wanna... but I'm thinking that's why some of your response was confusing to me. Do I need to go back and edit the earlier post to clarify, do you think? I DID write a veritable epistle... lol
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Post by MarineAmp on Aug 22, 2014 22:19:17 GMT -5
I'm not sure I really need to respond because Inigo is way better at writing it out for everyone, and I just don't have the time for it.
I was also responding with BIID, and non-BIID pretenders being a different category.
I have said before, and I think Lucretia is actually taking a line from me and altered it slightly. I have said that the second someone walks out the door pretending, they don't have to say a word, they are already lying. (This is part of the social and ethical dilemmas they have to deal with)
Tony, I don't think guys pretending to have past military experience or acting like they are currently in the military have a brain mapping disorder, I don't think military uniforms are encoded in our DNA, but maybe lying is. I think they do it for the feeling they get out of it. I just apply that to the walking out the door line. They become giant assholes if they try to get services they don't deserve, but I would guess that actual veterans are scamming the system way more than pretenders. Of course the system is already scamming the system so what can you say?
It wasn't that long ago that I was the one leading the mob to want to punch every person with BIID in the face so it would cure them of being an "asshole". Eventually the silent part of my brain that resisted change and hated anything that was baffling, woke up and said, "stop being a dick, at least some of the time." (whew that was close).
I just think the truth of the matter is, if you really saw some with BIID using a chair and getting out of the toilet, you would actually be happy that it was at least someone in a chair versus some AB guy who wanted more leg room or it was the closest to the door or whatever it might have been.
I also think can be worse longing to be disabled than it actually is to be disabled, especially if they just need to lose a foot or something. But that's just me, "the softy".
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Post by rollingman on Aug 22, 2014 22:59:57 GMT -5
Well I'm coming into this late, but would like to thank you for all your well written thoughts. Inigo, wow you did a great bit of writing there. Guess I'm a bit more liberal then most here, because I see nothing wrong with BIID folks at all. The argument that they use up ADA resources is kind of silly, because the number of people pretending is so small. If you can't except different kinks, or orientations, or just the way some folks are, then why are you on a site that is based on this? gaywheellover thank you for having the courage to tell us how it feels to be you. I think you could have more acceptance with us BDSM folks.
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Post by Pony on Aug 23, 2014 8:55:07 GMT -5
That was very well put, Marine! and I guess there's a part of me that really feels some compassion for anyone who desires to be disabled. I don't know, it's a crazy thing really- hard to wrap my head around! But, the other side of me is disgusted by someone who wants to play the disabled role for public sympathy, adoration, resources, etc. Like Lucretia said, I couldn't care less what u do behind closed doors...but that's not as fun, is it? It's more exhilarating to go in public...get the stares, help from people, struggle with a door so people can think what a hero you are. I'm just talking out loud here...this world is so crazy, really.
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Post by BA on Aug 23, 2014 21:59:39 GMT -5
The few people I have spoken to with BIID, hate it. It mentally tortures them. I am sure none of them want to feel the way they do. It's a very bizarre condition. I have compassion for them but only if they are honest in the way they present themselves. If it crosses over into pretending and/or using resources such as parking spots, it crosses a line.
Like many of the ladies here, I have been stalked down by any number of 'pretenders', most of who do NOT have BIID. At one point, a number of years ago, I doubted every new wheeler here was actually disabled.
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Post by Pony on Aug 24, 2014 9:09:41 GMT -5
Wow, pretenders are even stranger than BIID....that's so weird. BA.
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Post by JW on Aug 24, 2014 12:57:19 GMT -5
The few people I have spoken to with BIID, hate it. It mentally tortures them. I am sure none of them want to feel the way they do. It's a very bizarre condition. I have compassion for them but only if they are honest in the way they present themselves. If it crosses over into pretending and/or using resources such as parking spots, it crosses a line. Like many of the ladies here, I have been stalked down by any number of 'pretenders', most of who do NOT have BIID. At one point, a number of years ago, I doubted every new wheeler here was actually disabled. The whole BIID topic is fairly new to me, so I'll leave that to someone like lucyirons who has professional experience with it and seems to have summed up the situation nicely. Pretenders are another matter altogether. Here's a place where disabled guys and devotees can chat openly and you're saying that there are loads of pretenders lurking around. That's just ridiculous! The last thing I want is to be chatting with somebody about the pain and difficulties that come with pressure sores and bladder infections, to have some pretender copy my actual real-life issues so that he can use it to try to pick up a girl. I wish there was some way that they could screen/prevent pretenders from being registered as members in the first place, but that would probably be almost impossible to do.
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Post by mike on Aug 24, 2014 18:56:30 GMT -5
It seems to me that the relationship between pretenders and BIID is quite similar to the relationship between cross-dressers and transgenders. As far as a pretender trying to fool others, I think that's about as likely as the transvestites fooling you in person. Mind you I'm not disparaging either group, just pointing out what seems like a parallel.
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Post by Emma on Aug 24, 2014 23:22:37 GMT -5
But that's all they can ever be is a pretender, they can't meet a dev cos that would rumble their cover, and I'm sure that if a dev has been taken in by a pretender then it would be the first and only time. You would be surprised. Pretenders are EVERYWHERE (including all over this board) and its not that tough to be deceived. I know of a pretender/possible BIID who met a dev in a rented WC van. I personally have been duped twice by dudes. The first was a rookie mistake but the second took me by surprise. I make it a habit now of only believing guys who have gotten on cam with me for this very reason. Remember though, that I'm an amputee dev. It's much tougher to prove you are real when you have an SCI or other disability that involves complete limbs.
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Post by Inigo Montoya on Aug 24, 2014 23:29:45 GMT -5
I have been duped way more than once. I was in the crew who met the dude in the WC van. Before that, he had "accidentally" shown me his legbag once during a vid chat transfer. So, he was pretty dedicated. Nowadays, I almost have to stab a guy in the leg with a fork to believe. lol
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Post by Inigo Montoya on Aug 25, 2014 0:17:01 GMT -5
I have been duped way more than once. I was in the crew who met the dude in the WC van. Before that, he had "accidentally" shown me his legbag once during a vid chat transfer. So, he was pretty dedicated. Nowadays, I almost have to stab a guy in the leg with a fork to believe. lol Wow!!! I'm very new to this board, and even though I deal with "legit" Pwd on a regular basis because of my job, have never been in contact (at least to my knowledge) with pretenders. It's always nice to read your posts, and surely will keep my eyes open in case I bump into them. No problem with them as long as they state their status. Sure hope to avoid deceptive encounters. Greetings!!! Thanks. I don't participate here like I used to... If you want tips about how to tell if the person you're talking to is a pretender, Holla at some of us oldies. Emma and Lucretia and BA are particularly good at spotting them. Pm any of us. That goes for any of the newer devs. I thin Lu may actually have a document typed up, but I'm not sure.
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